Blitz

A place to talk about the Geocaching Australia dragonZone and other games
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caughtatwork
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Re: Blitz

Post by caughtatwork » 22 April 21 11:12 am

I am open and willing to listen to anyone who has a game idea and a fair scoring method.

If this post seems bitter, it's not meant to be, it's just fact but when you add it up it comes across that way. I would love to hear how we can try and mitigate these problems understanding a lot has been done in the past, but then I cannot see everything either.
  • We have seen people play rules lawyers with moveable cache races and we will probably never run one again.
  • We have seen people falsely claim locationless caches as there is no log book there is no proof. Photo evidence is bent far, far out of shape, far too far to be considered a genuine find (e.g. a photo from a magazine rather than a physical location with co-ordinates simply made up).
  • History and Virtual caches suffer from the same sorts of challenges with arm-chair logging.
  • Physical geocaches are much less likely to be gamed than non-physical geocaches.
  • We have had situations in the past where someone will list 50 geocaches, their mates log a find, the cache is archived.
  • We saw in the old Bingo game people listing cache after cache after cache just to get a number that they could use to help out a mate or themselves.
  • False logs are probably more frequent that I care to acknowledge, but there is little a game administrator can do and the cache owner can't delete a log anyway, so we just have to accept them.
We do offer prizes based on top 10, then other ladder positions meaning you don't always to be at the top of the ladder, you could get lucky, find one cache and end up in position 75 which gives a prize. We do this to help those who have fewer geocaches around them. I suffer the same sort of problem with so few geocaches near me that I haven't found, but I only join in for fun.

The best way to get geocaches near to you that you haven't found it to encourage those who don't hey play at GCA to try the game. You will get all sorts of pushback about the site being to hard to use, they don't like it, there is no app, etc, but these are generally excuses and not real reasons. Site navigation and use is always brought up as "too hard" but in reality, just "different" and I have never, ever (seriously) had anyone suggest anything better, just "too hard to use". There is an Android app (mtrax) and an Apple app (Team MavEtJu), so press the developers to make improvements as our open API should give them access to almost anything you need in the field. Think about why you play at GCA and use the same ideas on others. You might just start to create your own community in your area.

For most of the 2020 game of games, we had a find and a hide option. Not too many people took up the hide option, and of course if no-one hides, no-one finds. Journey or Destination was a hide / find game. Blitz and Showdown are purely find based games but if you can get more people hiding, then you can play more with finding.

The next major (mid year) game is a hide and find game. The major game after that is also (mostly) a hide (14) and find (22) game, but that is subject to change. So you should be in a position where you can do fewer finds, more hides, and still play the game.

We can run more scavenger hunts, but you're still up for finding something that fits the scavenge and the false logging game of locationless caches may simply lower your overall scores as the competitive streak in some folks comes out to play.

In short, there is no simple answer to making the game "fairer". Some games will suit some, and some games will suit others with some folks in some locations unable to participate much at all. Get more people hiding, get your geocaches friends involved, help to keep the site going, and you can make it "fairer" for everyone.

budgietas
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Re: Blitz

Post by budgietas » 23 April 21 6:39 am

A locationless challenge favours the people who are retired and have time to sit at a computer doing jigsaws.

Also it doesn’t encourage people to get out and about, which is a key aspect of geocaching.

budgietas
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Re: Blitz

Post by budgietas » 23 April 21 6:45 am

It’s a little disappointing that we will get nothing from this current blitz game.

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oldfella
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Re: Blitz

Post by oldfella » 23 April 21 7:49 am

I love locationeless as it allows me to actually do something. I live in an area where I have no caches to find within 2 hours from home. I place
GCA ( lots of physical hides to encourage others to the area. I agree locationless are not for everyone but they do fill a need in my opinion.

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caughtatwork
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Re: Blitz

Post by caughtatwork » 23 April 21 9:51 am

budgietas wrote:
23 April 21 6:45 am
It’s a little disappointing that we will get nothing from this current blitz game.
Then y'all need to try harder :-) You still have the weekend to encourage people to get out and find some GCA caches.

budgietas
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Re: Blitz

Post by budgietas » 23 April 21 2:21 pm

caughtatwork wrote:
23 April 21 9:51 am
budgietas wrote:
23 April 21 6:45 am
It’s a little disappointing that we will get nothing from this current blitz game.
Then y'all need to try harder :-) You still have the weekend to encourage people to get out and find some GCA caches.
Try a little harder - I have done two weekends of driving over 600 kms a day to get the caches I have found. Dont know how much harder you want people to try! Given we found 1400 as a community last time - how could we increase this by 42% to get to 2000. Unrealistic

Talking about fairness, the whole dragonzone points are unfair in general. In Tasmania, the majority of active cachers are in one clan. Which means they get a bouns everytime they find a cache as they control the zone or the cache. This basically makes the game rigged against anyone in a different clan. I know the dragonzone guardian will say get more people into your clan, which is not really possible

I am very disappointed in GCA at the moment. Take a few of my hides
GA18779 - 8 finds in 6 months
GA6107 - 8 finds in 7 months
GA6128 - 10 finds in 15 months (A nearby GC cache has 17 finds in 1 month)
GA6109 - 10 finds in 23 months (A nearby GC cache has 40 finds in 9 months)

I understand that the developers have been adding new things. Like the stickers (Why?) and the Gotta Find them all. My Gotta find them all is stalled because my nearest Augmented Reality cache is 1500 kms away.... Not really a day trip

budgietas
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Re: Blitz

Post by budgietas » 23 April 21 2:37 pm

Oh - by the way - I am not after the path tags prizes - Personally, I think they should be removed from the Games.

2y'stassies
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Re: Blitz

Post by 2y'stassies » 23 April 21 3:49 pm

Like a few other teams we only find moveable caches once. This is our choice and will put us at a disadvantage in some situations but we expect that. No game is played on a level playing field no matter how hard we try.
For Blitz, Tasmanian cachers who find moveables multiple times are extremely lucky as there are at least 130 moveables located in 3 areas, mostly in large groups, some already bagged and some that land on your doorstep or desk at work. Compare this with Youngoldfella's isolation. These things happen and no matter how carefully the game organisers plan they will continue to happen.
Most of us do what we can and enjoy being part of the game. Sometimes circumstances limit participation but this is life.
Personally we enjoy seeing the participation tags at the top of our page, momentos of fun had that is unique to GCA .

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whitewebbs
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Re: Blitz

Post by whitewebbs » 23 April 21 8:19 pm

Yes it looks like 2000 finds will not be achieved during blitz. Now there will be another problem. From the "2021 planning" topic which says games June/July 2021 most GCA hunters will have found everything for the Blitz games and there will be nothing near to find. I know that will be the case for me.
We definitely need to encourage placement of more caches and if they are placed don't find until the next games.

budgietas
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Re: Blitz

Post by budgietas » 24 April 21 7:34 am

whitewebbs wrote:
23 April 21 8:19 pm
Yes it looks like 2000 finds will not be achieved during blitz. Now there will be another problem. From the "2021 planning" topic which says games June/July 2021 most GCA hunters will have found everything for the Blitz games and there will be nothing near to find. I know that will be the case for me.
We definitely need to encourage placement of more caches and if they are placed don't find until the next games.
That’s an issue Whitewebs.... if you go and find gca caches outside games, there are none to find within games as the numbers hiding are so low. The only reason there were some for me to find this game was I hadn’t done the new geoarts on the nw coast. Now they are down there are odd caches to find but they are very dispersed. So I won’t have anything much to find in next games.

It has been said that without people hiding them there is nothing to find..... with only around 6-8 people in the state hiding regularly there is very little to find. And we are the most active state? I am seriously considering swapping my gca caches to Gc so they get some action, and that shows the problem... too few hiding and Too few finding. A gca log book really only needs the space for 12 names, because that’s as often as it will be found in its life.

The developers are keen to put games on, but that only keeps the ones that are here active. It doesn’t attracted new players. We need a game breaking event / change that we can use to attract people. The event that did that for me at first, was the second gnome race. Not saying we need to do that again, and I understand moveables have become a problem, with big clumps, people not rehiding, and other people taking them to locations to take them out of circulation all of which is not in the spirit but within the rules. But we need something different.

That’s why I suggested gca iPhone app and changes to moveable rules, one to attract new players and one to fix a problem I can see, both have been shot down.

Please don’t get me wrong. I have been a big supporter of gca, I have promoted it at GC events to other cachers, but I fear that it’s descending fast, with all the locationless caches masking the issue. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind the locationless caches (I don’t do a lot), which are great for people without caches in the area. But these have gone from go and find this in your local community (ie get outside) to solve this jigsaw and get a find... which I understand during COVID, and that’s all well and good, but what’s the plan for transition after COVID? COVID, while a huge problem for some people, has been a opportunity for renewal for others. Every challenge is an opportunity

Caught at work , please understand I am not having a shot at you or the developers, but I want to but honest what is happening in the community with the site, since you don’t have the senate feedback any more, i don’t know if you get the feedback. I want the site to be great, I want more people involved. Some of the features developed are great, some are a little poorer but that’s going to happen with any development, you try some things, keep the good ones and scrap the others.

Maybe you need to do a survey of gca site users. Get some feedback. See what is working and what is not. See what ideas the people have. Ignore the fairness issue, as nothing is ever going to be fair, but go for personal targets, not competition and maybe fairness is not an issue then?

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oldfella
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Re: Blitz

Post by oldfella » 24 April 21 7:50 am

I do my bit for GCA and hide physical caches but Queensland is not a big state for GCA and I have to travel too far now to get any reasonable finds.

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sirius Tas
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Re: Blitz

Post by sirius Tas » 24 April 21 1:19 pm

I was wondering if we could include the number of GA unfound for each
state.
GA shows the total of unfound which includes GC, but I can't see a
breakdown for GA alone.
I realise we can do it by a query...which I do...but would be nice to see
who has what to find solely on GA.

Main reason being the call in forums of late to put out more caches...but
think most would be shocked to see just how many each cacher actually has.
And yes...a lot of those would be trigs or for my own hides involve some
extra walking which it seems in latter yrs the majority of cachers are not
willing to do.

So I see the main problem being an acute attitude shift where caching has
just become a numbers game for both GA and GC.
If you look at the higher terrain ratings for GC caches, they fair no better than GA.

With the above in mind re GAMES....how about a terrain based game where pts are awarded according to terrain rating e.g. 1T = 1× pts....2T= 2×pts......5T=5×pts
and have the game over an extended period of say 3 months.
At least that would give additional incentive for the more unloved hides of which there are many.

Moveables have become a joke as just passed from person to person for
points based gains...and yes...I've been just as guilty too but wont be any more as
just not what caching is about imo.
Maybe...if they were actually made to be hidden separately rather than in
shopping bags? would help overcome some issues.
Also ban the passing by hand from one to another without physically finding...including events...
and make it a strict 2 logs minimum between same cacher finds??

Just throwing around some thoughts...its always easy to be critical but way harder to come up with solutions.

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caughtatwork
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Re: Blitz

Post by caughtatwork » 26 April 21 10:34 am

I'll answer what I can.
sirius Tas wrote:
24 April 21 1:19 pm
I was wondering if we could include the number of GA unfound for each state.
GA shows the total of unfound which includes GC, but I can't see a breakdown for GA alone.
I realise we can do it by a query...which I do...but would be nice to see who has what to find solely on GA.

Main reason being the call in forums of late to put out more caches...but think most would be shocked to see just how many each cacher actually has. And yes...a lot of those would be trigs or for my own hides involve some extra walking which it seems in latter yrs the majority of cachers are not willing to do.
I'm not sure which statistic you are mentioning. It's always nice to get a link to the information so I can quickly narrow it down rather than try and work out what you're thinking of.

If you mean the Swimming Against The Tide, then I have broken them down to GCA and dZ.
https://geocaching.com.au/my/graphs/060 ... e_tide_GCA
https://geocaching.com.au/my/graphs/060 ... dragonzone

I have 268 dragonZone caches in my state that I am yet to find, so even though they may be away from me in terms of an "afternoon of caching", if I wanted to I could head out and collect a lot on a nice weekend away.

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caughtatwork
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Re: Blitz

Post by caughtatwork » 26 April 21 10:39 am

sirius Tas wrote:
24 April 21 1:19 pm
So I see the main problem being an acute attitude shift where caching has just become a numbers game for both GA and GC. If you look at the higher terrain ratings for GC caches, they fair no better than GA.

With the above in mind re GAMES....how about a terrain based game where pts are awarded according to terrain rating e.g. 1T = 1× pts....2T=2×pts......5T=5×pts and have the game over an extended period of say 3 months. At least that would give additional incentive for the more unloved hides of which there are many.
We did have a game called Well Rounded Cacher where you could try for the 3x3, 4x4 or 5x5. It was only partially well received because, as you state, there are no 5x5 GCA or dZ caches I can try for. There aren't many 3x3's either. o the volume of caches for that type of game isn't there to run a single game for those again.

You will also find that there will be a new Quest coming which will be based on terrain and difficulty collections. I await the complaints from the general community as how hard that is too as there are no caches that fit their own criteria :-(

Don't wait for others to lead you to the well, hide you own and the community will follow. In other words, hide them and they will come. But if people are not willing to hide, well then there will be nothing to find and the site will diminish.

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caughtatwork
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Re: Blitz

Post by caughtatwork » 26 April 21 10:42 am

sirius Tas wrote:
24 April 21 1:19 pm
Moveables have become a joke as just passed from person to person for points based gains...and yes...I've been just as guilty too but wont be any more as just not what caching is about imo.

Maybe...if they were actually made to be hidden separately rather than in shopping bags? would help overcome some issues.

Also ban the passing by hand from one to another without physically finding...including events...and make it a strict 2 logs minimum between same cacher finds??

Just throwing around some thoughts...its always easy to be critical but way harder to come up with solutions.
How do we ban that activity? There is nothing that separates the find and move from a find and move "at an event" or being dropped on your front door step.

People will use 2 mates to hand caches around if there is a 2 log minimum. Or 3 mates. Or their spouse and kids. Or fake accounts. It can't be stopped and that's why fewer games allow for the multiple finds on moveables during the game period and why there is unlikely to be another moveable cache race. Competitive people allow the need to "win" to override their morals.

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