GCA listings of caches in areas where geocaching is banned

[homedg]

Geocaching in National Parks in NSW has been illegal since October 2002. Geocachers have simply not checked whether NPWS had a policy on geocaching or if they did, chose to ignore it. We should not put our collective heads in the sand by continuing to ignore the law. If we do then the work being done by various parties to have the policy changed in favour of geocaching cannot possibly succeed. GCA has the means to identify areas under the protection of NPWS just as Groundspeak does. Groundspeak doesn't allow caches to be placed in National Parks in NSW & neither should GCA. If we don't stop caches being placed in National Parks in NSW then the time will come when we are asked by DECC to remove the lot. As an alternative, GCA should actively promote virtual caches & trigs.

So, should we also stop caching in local parks?

[Tuena]

The discussion here is : GCA listings of caches in areas where geocaching is banned.

I'm lead to believe that points of view expressed here will assist the senators in deciding what direction to take.

I've expressed my point of view.

As to whether you hide caches in a local park I suggest you take my advice & please yourself.

[caughtatwork]

Just as well you removed that comment C@W!

If you don't want comments then don't pretend you do my uttering the likes of:

"Even if someone has "said it before", we encourage all feedback so we can understand the various positions and passions."

At least I know what direction your robust discussion will take. Pretty poor form.

My comment was meant as humour, but didn't end up looking like that so I removed it. I think the last bit which was "these are not the droids you are looking for" should have indicated that, but I felt it better to be removed so no-one got the wrong message.

As far as your last sentence goes, robust discussion requires two sides and I will argue for my side as much as I hope people will argue for not my side. That's not poor form, that's democracy.

If people support one side or the other I hope they make their voice heard even if their points have been made. If 100 people support the NO vote, but only one person says something, only the 1 person will be heard and the 99 others will never be heard. If 10 people support the YES vote and all 10 speak up, there are 10 people being heard for the YES position.

So, I fully support people putting their positions forward, even if they have been put forward before. A "me too" or a "+1" will give additional voice to a position (provided it can be easily seen which "me too" they are supporting).

The senate governs the GCA website. As a default senator I will try to make a case based on what I believe to be in the interest of the website. If the vote in the senate is for banning, then we ban. If the vote in the senate in not for banning, then we don't ban. This will occur regardless of which side I come down on.

This is democracy in action, not hidden agenda, not poor form. If I wanted to play the poor form card, then I wouldn't have pushed to get the senate going, put forward the guidelines for the senate, set up the voting, even started this thread. I would have been a benevolent dictator, gone with a liberal interpretation of "free and open" and left the situation as it is with no-one able to offer any opinion about the site and how it's run.

Obviously I didn't and don't do that, so please don't call my actions poor form.

[blossom*]

So, should we also stop caching in local parks?

Caching in local parks is not specifically mentioned in regulations as being banned. But geocaching IS mentioned by name in the NSW National Parks rules as being banned. I think there is a big distinction between them.

Where it's specifically stated that geocaching is not allowed, I think it's fair to take a stand and not allow new hides to be placed in these areas.

Where it might be interpreted by some people that geocahing might be covered by some regulations which would indicate that it was not allowed, I think it would NOT be appropriate to ban the publishung of new caches.

[homedg]

Please don't take offense to my comments Lyn (Blossom*).
Just trying to make a point that it is a thin and narrow path that is being tread on.
I also agree with C@W that Debate is Great, so appreciate your comments.
Happy caching.

[blossom*]

no offence

But I thought it was worth stating the differences so we were all clear on why there is a suggestion to not allow listing just for the NP managed areas.

[Tuena]

C@W said Obviously I didn't and don't do that, so please don't call my actions poor form.

Your actions in adding that comment was to me poor form & obviously you agreed. I was quite surprised & disturbed that you would belittle my view/me given that you had encouraged people to put forward comments. You can ask that I don't call your actions poor form however my opinion is based on your comments.

[caughtatwork]

Few (if anyone) knows what the comments were, so let's leave it at that and continue to focus on the topic at hand.

[homedg]

This thread is not just about Nat Parks but "areas where geocaching is banned".
Which is pretty much everywhere without the landholders express permission.

[CraigRat]

This thread is not just about Nat Parks but "areas where geocaching is banned".
Which is pretty much everywhere without the landholders express permission.

No, its about where geocaching is EXPLICITLY banned, as stated numerous times throughout the thread.

[Lucy]

And let's face it, national parks position is not a new thing. We all used to hide, find and enjoy caching in these environs until people started to raise the issue of whether it was legitimate and now we are where we are

The people who raised the issue were NSW NPWS themselves. The change was that they provided Groundspeak a KML file which clearly outlined the boundaries of all lands managed by them, thus allowing the reviewers an easy way of checking, which they did not have prior. Anything that has happened since is purely a response to the stance that NSW NPWS have taken. Some of NSW NPWS actions have been prompted by National Parks Association lobbying for reasons which are yet unclear.

I am happy to hide and find caches anywhere where it has not been specifically banned. I am also actively working to reverse the NSW NPWS ban. Hiding new caches in NSW NPWS managed lands does NOT help our cause at this stage, we need to negotiate and educate in good faith. I do not however advocate removing existing caches until and unless they are reported/shown to be causing a problem.

[homedg]

And let's face it, national parks position is not a new thing. We all used to hide, find and enjoy caching in these environs until people started to raise the issue of whether it was legitimate and now we are where we are

I do not however advocate removing existing caches until and unless they are reported/shown to be causing a problem.

This seems akin to being a little bit pregnant. Either we do or we don't.
Don't you think?

[Lucy]

And let's face it, national parks position is not a new thing. We all used to hide, find and enjoy caching in these environs until people started to raise the issue of whether it was legitimate and now we are where we are

I do not however advocate removing existing caches until and unless they are reported/shown to be causing a problem.

This seems akin to being a little bit pregnant. Either we do or we don't.
Don't you think?

No, not at all. I am using caches that have already been hidden to demonstrate the distinct lack of any damage/detrimental effect, environmental or otherwise to NSW NPWS Advisory Committee at the moment.

I think you keep missing the point; we are asking people not to hide any new GCA physical, as distinct from virtual or waypoint, caches in NSW NPWS managed land. You can't list a cache hidden in a NSW NPWS managed area on GC.com. As far as I am aware, NSW NPWS have not yet requested that we remove existing caches. As a sign of goodwill, Geocaching NSW requested that its members do not search for cache containers hidden in NSW NPWS managed land, but everyone is free to decide for themselves.

[ruzzelz]

Just to refresh the situation for those new to the issues the Queensland Parks and Wildlife Service has contacted Groundspeak and advised the Australian reviewer that geocaching is not permitted in National Parks.

GC will not approve caches on known Qld National Parks areas. It is not clear if QPWS has provided mapping information to the reviewers to assist them in determining the areas.

QPWS Rangers in some areas have been actively removing existing geocaches. Almost all caches in the Main Range National Park and on Mt Barney National Park reserve have been removed. These calling cards/warnings have been posted at the sites. I consider that this type of notice on public display does NOT in any way promote a positive image for geocaching to other persons visiting these areas.

http://www.gpsaustralia.net/forums/show ... ge=3&pp=15

I have initiated discussions with QPWS Central Office policy officers to formulate a position in relation to geocaching.

Likewise to the NSW position in Lucy's post:

Hiding new caches in QPWS managed lands does NOT help our cause at this stage, we need to negotiate and educate in good faith.

[homedg]

I think I get the point BUT;

We leave caches that are already in National Parks, but nobody goes and finds them?

Have I got it right?