Australian and New Zealand Trig Points as Waymarks?

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Aushiker
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Post by Aushiker » 12 July 06 10:48 am

Hi

The Management Group is now working on creating the Waymark Category, Austrailan Trig Points.

One thing that has come up is providing the various state names for Trig Points and coming up with a clear common definition effective for all states of a benchmark.

As I now understand it, Trig Points are known as Trig Points in WA and NT, and Control Marks in ACT. Are there any other state based naming conventions?

In respect of benchmarks, I would consider them to similiar to as per this this photo, i.e., survey markers set in the ground usually in concret and marked by metal plate. Is this the common state by state position?

Thanks
Andrew

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Post by riblit » 12 July 06 11:27 am

Aushiker wrote: In respect of benchmarks, I would consider them to similiar to as per this this photo, i.e., survey markers set in the ground usually in concret and marked by metal plate. Is this the common state by state position?

Thanks
Andrew
If you are in America! We are a bit more versatile.

The one just outside my property (regularly dug up by surveyors) is about a foot under the present ground surface and consists of a white pipe
The surveyor positions his theodolite over it.
A quick browse of my database gives descriptions like:
Drill hole in rock, cart case in concrete, Brass plug in Rock, Plug in stone, Peg, etc.

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Post by Aushiker » 12 July 06 11:55 am

Thanks for your comments, but I suspect the type of thing you are referring to is more a local survey mark. I suspect for the waymarking category we are not going to open it up as wide as this.

Do you get benchmarks similiar to the photo shown? That is clearly defined permanent marks in the ground for surveying purposes, that is similiar to Trig Points without the framework.

Regards
Andrew

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Post by Wyoming Wombats » 12 July 06 11:56 am

In NSW there are 3 types of survey markers that should be considered for this exercise. They are:-<P>
SSM's (State Survey Marks) which are round brass plugs with numbers on them.<P>
PM's (Permanent Marks) which are stainless steel rods set into concrete and enclosed in a metal box<P>and
Trig stations.<P>
What Ribit is talking about are "Reference Marks". These are either buried or marks chiselled into the kerb and reference property boundaries. Whithout going into a thesis on NSW surveying, Waymarking should just concentrate on SSM's, PM's And Trig stations in NSW.<P>Can post some photos in the near future.

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Post by The Ginger Loon » 12 July 06 12:01 pm

Wyoming Wombats wrote:PM's (Permanent Marks) which are stainless steel rods set into concrete and enclosed in a metal box<P>Can post some photos in the near future.
I'd be interested in seeing a photo of these. The other two I am familiar with, but these?

Are the metal boxes large and green with no identifying features perhaps?

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Post by Wyoming Wombats » 12 July 06 12:03 pm

The Ginger Loon wrote:
Wyoming Wombats wrote:PM's (Permanent Marks) which are stainless steel rods set into concrete and enclosed in a metal box<P>Can post some photos in the near future.
I'd be interested in seeing a photo of these. The other two I am familiar with, but these?

Are the metal boxes large and green with no identifying features perhaps?
<P>
Secret surveyor's business. The outer appearance is similar to a Stop Valve or Hydrant cover. All will be revealed soon. Stay tuned.

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Post by The Ginger Loon » 12 July 06 12:05 pm

Wyoming Wombats wrote:
The Ginger Loon wrote:
Wyoming Wombats wrote:PM's (Permanent Marks) which are stainless steel rods set into concrete and enclosed in a metal box<P>Can post some photos in the near future.
I'd be interested in seeing a photo of these. The other two I am familiar with, but these?

Are the metal boxes large and green with no identifying features perhaps?
<P>
Secret surveyor's business. The outer appearance is similar to a Stop Valve or Hydrant cover. All will be revealed soon. Stay tuned.
Tell me now!!! I've been seeing these boxes all over the place since I started caching and am at a loss as to what they are (The green boxes that is).

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Post by Wyoming Wombats » 12 July 06 12:10 pm

Loon,<P>If the boxes are on a stem, they are probably a mail collection point. Otherwise I'm not sure what you are talking about. Maybe you can post a picture of what you mean. :)

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Post by Mix » 12 July 06 12:20 pm

The Ginger Loon wrote:
Wyoming Wombats wrote:PM's (Permanent Marks) which are stainless steel rods set into concrete and enclosed in a metal box<P>Can post some photos in the near future.
I'd be interested in seeing a photo of these. The other two I am familiar with, but these?
go out into a rural area, and look for a yellow mark on a fence or poll, look around that area for a metal lid flush with the ground, open it and you should find a star post in the earth under it and a number under the lid.

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Post by The Ginger Loon » 12 July 06 12:23 pm

Wyoming Wombats wrote:Loon,<P>If the boxes are on a stem, they are probably a mail collection point. Otherwise I'm not sure what you are talking about. Maybe you can post a picture of what you mean. :)
I'll do that tonight after work and start another thread...

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Post by Hounddog » 12 July 06 12:26 pm

I have contacted AusHiker on this subject and hope to be of help if I can.

If it is allowed, and someone wants to take over this side of Geocaching I am more than happy to help, but I would suggest that going "wider" than the guidlines set out in the original cache is not a good idea. There are simply too many places and variations of markers to consider or co ordinate. Established officially marked Trig points should be the only targets and even this in itself is an enormous job to record and co ordinate.

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Post by Wyoming Wombats » 12 July 06 12:29 pm

Mix wrote: go out into a rural area, and look for a yellow mark on a fence or poll, look around that area for a metal lid flush with the ground, open it and you should find a star post in the earth under it and a number under the lid.
<P>
This is one example of a PM in the bush<P>I'll go out at lunchtime and see what photos I can get (including a big green box). Stay tuned.

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Post by Mix » 12 July 06 1:32 pm

Wyoming Wombats wrote:
Mix wrote: go out into a rural area, and look for a yellow mark on a fence or poll, look around that area for a metal lid flush with the ground, open it and you should find a star post in the earth under it and a number under the lid.
<P>
This is one example of a PM in the bush<P>I'll go out at lunchtime and see what photos I can get (including a big green box). Stay tuned.
PM photos:

http://gallery.geocaching.com.au/markers

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Post by Kerry » 12 July 06 2:04 pm

There is no simple or easy reply to many of the comments made above. Trig marks, Permenent Survey Marks (PSM's) and associated reference and recovery stations come in a wide varity of configurations and styles.

Permanent type survey marks can be anything from a ramset nail to a fully pillared concrete reference station with the most common marks being standard brass plagues, deep driven marks (DDM) where soil conditions could move (these will be covered with a box/lid), star pickets, star pickets in sand collars as well as a whole range of rust resistent marking material including spent ammo cartridge cases which were used a lot during survey thru the war periods.

Coordinates will vary widely from first order GDA through to digitized coords. Access to sketch summaries for states like Queensland will involve a cost per mark to acquire.

With cultural heritage issues the way they are many marks (especially the old trig stations) are now in "sensitive" areas and in the interests of on going community relationships one wouldn't like to see heaps of people trampling through some areas hunting survey marks.

If there is any real interest in this then much the same as has ocured in the US there has been some liason setup between the offical custodians of survey marks (government type departments normally each State) and those wishing to hunt permanent survey marks. There is some merit in this if the infomation gathered is fed back into the control data base system but this would need to be discussed on a State level?

There are not a lot of marks under Federal control and those such as the AFN/ANN are critical infrastruture and quite well marked/maintained.


What ever anubody does do not get involved with cadastral type buried marks (Iron pins etc) as this in no way will be welcomed by the surveying profession and besides apart from being illegal to do so is quite boring anyway.

Cheers, Kerry.

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Post by Wyoming Wombats » 12 July 06 2:04 pm

OK more photos added. Use Mix's link. I have included a big green box although I'm not sure if this is what the Loon means. In NSW these three types of marks are USUALLY the only marks co-ordinated to connect to the cadastral grid. It should be remembered that each State's regulations are different.<P>
Having a rethink as far as a cache goes, I must totally agree with the 2 Dogs. SSM's and PM's are pretty common nowdays and in a lot of cases fall inside the magical 160m radius of each other. IMHO we should leave the Waymarking cache just as Trig Points - there are around 5000 SSMs and PMs in Hornsby Shire alone so to me to add these marks would be a different sort of cache overkill.<P>Kerry is also right. We surveyors don't take kindly to people digging up marks.

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