Security Over Stepping The Line

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Lt. Sniper
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Security Over Stepping The Line

Post by Lt. Sniper » 30 January 05 1:40 am

What can a security guard do? It seems every time I go out caching there is always a run in with security, all of them have been nice and usually show some genuine interest in my GPS. I donÂ’t have a problem with them or that happening. TonightÂ’s one was a real SOB.

He pulls me over in an empty estate on the road, which is public space, blocks me from going anywhere by standing in my way. He tells me not to move and walks around my car looking in with his spot light trying to see what’s in the back (Lancer Hatchback). Does his whole walk around and then comes back to the window. He put his German Shepard who is growling right next to my door which of course is not a pleasant thing and asks what I was doing and I said what I was doing, which was driving around. He gets a bit more annoyed and starts asking what’s in my bag so I told him its non of his business and he asked again more angrily, same answer. Then he proceeds to threaten me with calling the cops and a personal threat against me if I am ever seen in the area again. He also wrote down my number plates. I of course didn’t take his crap and had a go at him for pulling me over just to harass me and told him more then once to ‘go fudge him self’ but I couldn’t say that much since I was more worried about him releasing the dog.

What is a security person actually allowed to do if you are in public space? I know this is more a question for a law expert but someone in here might have an idea.

Anyone else had a run in with a security guard whoÂ’s been on a power-trip?

I am now going to have to make my cache in that area day only now since I had recommended it for nighttime finders. I donÂ’t want anyone to have to put up with that prick.

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Post by Team Red Devil » 30 January 05 5:08 am

As far as we are aware- they have no right to harass you and carry on like that twit. I would call his security company, and tell them you were harassed, and tell them about the dog etc- and especially the personal threat against you. If I were you, I would have told him to call the police- or locked all my doors and grabbed the mobile and called them myself. Tell them you were being held against your will by a security guard with a dog, for no reason. Then, when the cops show- tell them what you were doing- tell them that you had told the guy what you were doing, and he still proceeded to harass and threaten you and the extent of the guards threats against you. Tell them you want to press charges against him for harassment etc. Thats total BS. There is NO way he is allowed to do that- threats and harassment are NOT standard practice- this guys obviously a real A**hole. <br>
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Report him. And if you don't get any satisfaction from the first person you speak to- then ask for THEIR superior- on and on until you get the result you want. Be persistent. <br>
<br>
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Post by Slider & Smurf » 30 January 05 6:31 am

We've noticed a lot of security guards here in the States - even patrolling empty car parks to prevent theft and vandalism (which took a little avoidance to find the cache without raising suspicion!!)
<p>
You said you were in an empty estate - were there any signs advertising a security patrol in the area? Some estates have started to hire guards to try and reduce theft of fittings, broken windows etc - and it might mean your case is strengthened if there's nothing announcing their presence. Otherwise ... you might have to temper your position a little.
<p>
Best of luck, either way.

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Post by zactyl » 30 January 05 9:24 am

Granted the guy has no real power, but he still has a job to do, which is to keep young punks from vandalising the place... you fit the profile Lt Sniper, and when he asked what you were up to, you acted like a jerk. It all escalated from there...
Things could have turned out badly on a caching trip a few weeks ago when the cops turned up, they'd spotted our car from the road, with a couple of people crouched down under a tree, of course they came to investigate, and after we cooperated and explained and showed them the GPSr and cache they were satisified nothing sinister was afoot and off they went. Sure, there's no law against crouching under a tree, but if we'd refused to come clean and had given them attitude, it would have been a very different result.

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Post by acts2youthgroup » 30 January 05 10:40 am

my first question, would have to be was this in australia.
if so, speaking from experience( i worked as a security guard for 10 years). if this was on a public road then they have no right to stop you at all. security guards are payed to protect private property in some cases some government buildings, but these are usually guarded by australian protevtive services who have more power than the averag guard.
i would have called the cops my selve and had him charged with unlawfull imprisonment and harrasment or something along those lines. remember if you are on public land they have no right. But if u get caught on private property well thats different.

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Post by Geof » 30 January 05 10:44 am

I of course didn’t take his crap and had a go at him for pulling me over just to harass me and told him more then once to ‘go fudge him self’
If you do this you will loose.

If you were very peeved you need to remain calm and cival even if it's very hard.
Obtain ID from him and if he fails to provide take regos discriptions etc and report. I can see his worth in a place like that but thats not the way they should do there job :roll: . You should also note that the security guard industry seems to be good at knowing how to get away with stuff that shouldn't happen.

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Post by EcoTeam » 30 January 05 12:56 pm

They have little in the way of real powers, and in a public space they have essentially none.
But don't bother arguing with any such moron, just either walk away and/or call the police. You can also report them as others have said. They have no right to harress you in a public place, touch you in any way, stop you, or look in your bag/car etc. Harassment laws apply to them as well. But the usual common sense rules apply, even if you are legally in the right. You ain't gonna feel too great when you have half your front teeth knocked out, even if the drongo ends up in jail. These morons ain't wroth it.

It is usually a general rule in caching that if any muggle or guard takes an inclinging in what you are doing then just move on.

EcoDave :)

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Re: Security Over Stepping The Line

Post by EcoTeam » 30 January 05 1:09 pm

Lt. Sniper wrote:Anyone else had a run in with a security guard whoÂ’s been on a power-trip?
Our only run-in was at Luna Park doing the Get Smart cache. They had been watching go in and out of the bush via security camera and one of them came down to see what we were up to. They had also seen several other cachers recently doing the same thing.
He didn't seem the cooperative type, so I didn't tell him about caching and simply told him I was on public land, it was none of his business, and that he had no right to stop me. He agreed, but didn't like the fact that everyone was coming and going to this same spot looking suspicious, so he treatened to call the cops. I told him that was fine and he walked away and left it at that. Several other cachers were busted again the next day and a similar thing happened.
It turns out that the land was in fact private propery owned by the Luna Park trust, but they had opened it up for public recreational use.

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Post by Aushiker » 30 January 05 1:16 pm

[quote="EcoTeam"]They have little in the way of real powers, and in a public space they have essentially none./quote]

Just one comment. Security guards come under state law, which is different for each state. The powers that the security guard has or not have would very much depend on the laws of the state in which he or she operates. As this is incident was, I assume in Queensland, then it would be appropriate to enquiry with the state registration board (assuming there is one). If you know the security firm's name and the name of the guard you may want to look at logding a complaint with the appropriate authority, which may or may not be the police.

The other point you might not appreciate is that if you are in an estate, it may still be private property. It is normal (at least under Western Australian Local Goverment Act 1986) that until the roads within the estate are gazetted and handed over to the jurisdiction of the local authority, they remain private property. This may or may not be applicable in this instance.

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Post by caughtatwork » 30 January 05 1:17 pm

Some housing estates are owned by the developer while they build and display their display homes. They own the strees, parks, footpaths, etc.

If you were in a development with display houses, you could very well have been on private property and therefore the guard was seeking information as to why you were on private property.

This is a great cache location just near me that is begging for a cache, but until the display home area is opened to the public, it remains the developer property and they do patrol the area to keep people out.

Not sure what the real scenario is in the OP, but I wouldn't be so sanctimonious until I knew that it was actually public property and not private property.

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Post by xf king » 30 January 05 4:21 pm

That security guard sounds like a big whoss, he has to have a dog too to try and scare people off. Security guards have little power, and can only do something if you are vandalising or stealing items from their property. They are not allowed to harrass you and the first thing they should say when approching you is "do you know your on private property" before even asking what you are doing there. They should also let you leave at your own will not keep you in one spot like you have been pulled over by the police. They shouldn't be making threats. If anyone ever come across a security guard like that. Ask for thier ID. If they refuse. You have the same rights as you would against the police if they have no ID. A copper with no ID cannot fine you, arrest you or stop you for any reason. Take down a name and description if possible and even the type of dog they were walking with and report immediately to the security company, and if the receptionist wont do anything about it Ask for the manager.

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Post by Bronze » 30 January 05 4:58 pm

I worked as a Security Officer (Guard, yes there is a difference) for a little over 8 year and still train and advice for members and employers within the industry. I worked my up into Personal and Executive Protection which at $1000 a week doing security is not a bad wage. Makes you ask do you really want to be a teacher?

Anyhow, I have an idea and can add to this conversation. Everyone has raised very good points thus far, and without answering a bit more about your context there is really not much more that can be added. Firstly a few of good points in summary.

zactyl wrote:Granted the guy has no real power, but he still has a job to do...
acts2youthgroup wrote:...if this was on a public road then they have no right to stop you at all. security guards are payed to protect private property in some cases some government buildings...
Team Red Devil wrote:they have no right to harass you and carry on like that twit. I would call his security company, and tell them you were harassed, and tell them about the dog etc- and especially the personal threat against you.
EcoTeam wrote:But don't bother arguing with any such moron, just either walk away and/or call the police...
caughtatwork wrote:If you were in a development with display houses, you could very well have been on private property and therefore...

Firstly - Zactyl is correct, but at the same time could be incorrect depending on the context of where the guard / officer is. This point has been rasied by the others. If it's public property he has no further powers than an ordinary citizen - but an ordinary citizen has quite significant powers, even more than the police in some circumstances as an ordinary citizen dosen't have a sargent or inspector leaning on him.

If it was public property the guard should have just gone back to the Security core responsibility "Observe and Report!. That's all it comes down to. They are the eyes and ears of their client. They have no right to question, search, block, touch or move anything, unless...

The person is on private property. If this is the case then the officer has the same rights of the land owner, regardless of what state they are in. They have the right to secure, observe and report, stop people from taking passage through the land, stop people from removing physical or information material from within the land they are protecting by notifying the police or land owner. As also having the rights of the land owner they have the right to ask another for their bonafides (identification) which should be full name, date of birth and address or licence no. Legally the trespasser must provide this information but often won't. If they do not the officer will have the right to ask the police to do so on their behalf even after the trespasser has left the premisis.

First rule of security is "Observe and Report". All employees should only do this. A good officer will rely on that alone in most instances because being solitary is not a good situation and when it comes down to it dog or no dog is never going to stop a bullet if you piss the wrong person off. Write the rego and time / date is the best method.

To conclude - Geof has the best advice here to adhere to as a cacher:
Geof wrote: If you do this you will loose.

If you were very peeved you need to remain calm and cival even if it's very hard.
Obtain ID from him and if he fails to provide take regos discriptions etc and report. I can see his worth in a place like that but thats not the way they should do there job icon_rolleyes.gif . You should also note that the security guard industry seems to be good at knowing how to get away with stuff that shouldn't happen.
They get away with it because normal people like us don't know our rights and second to that - those who do know their right fail to effectively take action at the right level. The Security Industry. Don't worry about managers and companies write to the industry no matter what state you are in.

If I were in your situation (and I have been with a wife and two under three year old children) I would ask the security officer what his responsibilities are. Who is his client and who is his employer. What is his identification number and ask him to produce his licencing details. He has the right to refuse the later request though but it must be visable at all times if uniformed (unless he has a letter enabling him or his company to work plain clothes). I would ask him if this is private or public land. If it is private I would do ask he asks, no mater how he says it. If it is public I would go about my business. If he tries to stop me I would call the police and wait in my vehicle until they arrive. Be sure to write down the registration plate number and if the officer continues to take his line move on and park nearby until the police arrive.


Short Camp Fire time:
My wife and I had dinner at the "Ace of Clubs" in Wallsend. They employ 3 security personel to man the door, and one out in the car park with a dog to prevent car theft. I had my 1 year old son in my arms and a nearly three year old in a stroller. Walking along a footpath we had to walk between the guards van, he was talking on the phone. I asked him to close the door of the van as we would like to walk past with out being bitten. The dog was barking and very edgy. He refused and told us to walk around (the long way up to another bridge across a drain.) which would have been another 100meters on our trip home. I turned and walked back away 20 meters until the dog quietened and grabed my phone and dialed 000.

When he saw I was watching him he quickly finished his conversation and tok the dog from the van and came up to us. Again the dog was barking but I was on the phone and couldn't speak to him now. He heard me give the address and my details. After I got off the phone I explained that this is a council walkway and I take exception to not being allowed to walk it by another citizen - effectively ranking him into a thug that he was. He when't about his business dismissing us and letting the path free for us to go home but I didn't. I let Sal and the boys continue on as our home was within view and I waited until the police arrived.

I told then what had happened and went about heading home. They later came to my place and said that the officer will be reported to the NSW security industry for a breach of conduct, his employer will be notified and his accreditation to handle a dog will be revoked until he recompletes the course again. I was very satisified. About 18 months later he turned up at a job interview for the company I was a trainer and didn't have lace on the panel but needless to say whe I did rosters he didn't get a lot of shifts.


Bronze.
(Sorry about the typo's I have a headache!)
Last edited by Bronze on 30 January 05 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Bronze » 30 January 05 5:07 pm

xf king wrote:That security guard sounds like a big whoss, (I was actually thinking dickhead!)

... and report immediately to the security company, and if the receptionist wont do anything about it Ask for the manager.
Hi xf - I was typing whe you posted so I didn't mean to leave out your valid points in my post. You second bit about notifying the company. Go one further from that and notify the industry. As a courtesy I would notify the company just to say I have advised the industry of your employees actions and will not rest until his present and past conduct has been investigated.

Chances are that the officer will not lose his job but he will be severly pulled into line and the scare might just be enough for him to realise that a civilian has significant right above and beyond his own when it comes to public land.

Oh - Red Devil - I think 'twit' is a little lame too. Just come right out and call him what he is - A trumped up dickhead in a uniform frenzy!

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Post by Team Red Devil » 30 January 05 5:27 pm

Bronze- I was trying to be polite- I didn't want to offend anyone with what I truly thought of him! <br>
<br>
One thing I actually wondered about was why do Security need growling,snarling dogs? To me- that is just like arming them with a gun. And I know there are certain Security positions that require Security to be armed-but the average joe security are usually never 'armed'. Dogs like that are DEADLY Weapons. And unpredictable. I don't care how much training a dog has had- there are certain triggers that can just set even the most well trained dogs off. And a dog is NOT going to deter a bullet as someone mentioned- so whats their purpose? Just to scare the shit out of people? <br>
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I am absolutely terrified of dogs. Particularly Rottweilers, Mastiffs, Bulldogs and German Shepherds. I can handle small dogs, but NOT big dogs like those. I will walk as far away as I possibly can from them in the street, my blood pressure rises, and I will panic if it gets too close. I have even asked a child recently (in our local park) to take the dog away from me- he had a full grown pitbull on a leash-and it was taking all the young lads strength to stop the dog from running towards us. I had visions of the dog escaping the boys grip and doing some damage- and it sure didn't look like it wanted a kiss and a cuddle when it tried to run at us. <br>
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My point is- if the guard had stopped me- I would have told him in no uncertain terms to go lock the dog in the car because I am terrified of dogs and I would most certainly have a panic attack. If he refused- I would probably tell him he had a choice- lock the dog up, or have him and his mutt splattered all over the front of my car. (I'm estimating that I would be fairly agitated and panicky by now) If he still refused- I would lock the car, call the police, or just continued driving, and if he'd blocked me in forwards- I would have hit reverse. I WILL not have my daughter, my husband or myself put in danger by some dick in a rent-a-cop uniform. Hell no. I guarantee- had he stood in front of my car- he would have jumped out of the way if I'd driven forward. He might love his job- but I bet he wouldn't die for it. <br>
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If it was the police- I would have had no hesitation, but for a security guard- I know their job is to observe and report. IF I was breaking the law- they have power to call the police, report my car etc. But if I'm going about my business- they have no power to do anything like they did to you Sniper. He can ask you what you're doing etc, and ask you to leave- but ultimately he has no other rights than that. <br>
<br>
Marie. TRD.

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Post by Bronze » 30 January 05 5:40 pm

Team Red Devil wrote:Bronze- I was trying to be polite- I didn't want to offend anyone with what I truly thought of him! <br>

...some dick in a rent-a-cop uniform.

One thing I actually wondered about was why do Security need growling,snarling dogs?
It's a mix of OH&S and Psychological Deterent.

If the company has been requested to provide a higher level of security at a nominal rate, long hours in a dangerious location and/or past security measures for that location have been ineffective then the company will employ or contract an officer and dog.

Generally, but not always dog officer and dog will have little contact with the public. If the public will be in or near the officer route then a dog will be chosen which has a passive personality. Usually though security companies do not want officers dogs biting amember of the public, even if it is on private land.

I understand your fear. I have a Rodesian ridgeback and I only exersize him and train him out of town becuse he is just an awesome dog at intimidation. Loyal to the end and thats the fear because he will protect my boys and wife without stopping and thinking what the context is.

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