Who owns the land.

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pjamesk
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Re: Who owns the land.

Post by pjamesk » 15 January 13 11:15 pm

Some new sub divisions have to give land to the local council for public open space. Owned by council not the state government. At Hobart City Council were I work we also purchase private properties to extend our parks and reserves. Other land is vested to the council by the state gov for the council to manage. So you could say for caching "who is the land manager".

Another thing I have found interesting is with state gov land is which department is responsible for it. Road reserves are managed by Parks in some areas and transport in others. Some creaks are managed by the education department. Yet there are no schools near by.

Tuena
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Re: Who owns the land.

Post by Tuena » 16 January 13 8:44 pm

I was looking up a park in Nowra when I found info on public reserves & crown land administered by Shoalhaven City Council.

Credit: Shoalhaven City Council Plan of Management.

What is community land?

The Local Government Act 1993, requires Council to take and maintain an inventory of all land owned by Council. This land is then classified as either Community Land or Operation Land.

Community Land is further defined as land which is set aside for Community Use, such as parks, beaches, reserves, natural areas, community facilities and sports grounds. Any Community Land must be governed by a Plan of Management.

Community Land must be also be categorised as one or more of the following:
Sports ground
Park
General Community Use
Area of Cultural Significance
Natural Areas.
Natural Areas must be further sub-categorised as
Foreshore
Bushland
Wetland
Escarpment
Watercourse

&

What about crown land?

Crown Land that is in the care and control of Council must also be managed according to the provisions of the Crown Lands Act. Council has developed site specific Plans of Management for all show grounds located within the Shoalhaven. Other site specific Plans of Management that contain Crown Land are governed by the legislative framework of the Crown Lands Act, Local Government Act and the Environmental Planning and Assessment Act.

So I should be seeking permission from council as the land manager before I hide a geocache on land managed by them. Council has numerous links to those parks, grounds, reserves, headlands, beaches etc etc so I can identify them.

nutwood
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Re: Who owns the land.

Post by nutwood » 16 January 13 9:55 pm

I posted earlier with the viewpoint that ownership/control of crown land is a quagmire, depending on whether control of said land is a good thing or a problem.
I've recently encountered a road that is split up the middle. The RHS is a road reserve. The LHS is a succession of small pieces of property resumed from the properties along that side when it was decided to make the road wider. Unfortunately, the powers that be successfully divided off the land they required for their road widening but never moved beyond that point.
The result of this is that the adjoining properties have changed hands many times but a little bit of the road in front of each property still belongs to a long distant owner, even if they don't know it! :-k

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Richary
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Re: Who owns the land.

Post by Richary » 16 January 13 10:45 pm

Tuena wrote:So I should be seeking permission from council as the land manager before I hide a geocache on land managed by them. Council has numerous links to those parks, grounds, reserves, headlands, beaches etc etc so I can identify them.
Personally I would prefer if you didn't :)

Part of the problem is identifying the borders of the land. What is the exact border of a park? It may be obvious if there is a fence, it may not be if it borders onto bushland owned by ???

Secondly, many land managers if they are aware of geocaching unofficially are quite happy to tolerate it. If they become aware of it via official correspondence it is then the legal side gets involved, who are less enthusiastic about it as if the council has officially endorsed the activity they are worried they will be held responsible if someone gets injured while doing it. Even if the environmental people or sports/rec ones are happy with it. (This has been proven by experience where Geocaching NSW has had to get involved).

I think as cachers the best thing we can do is to not place caches on obviously private land without permission, and when placing on areas we might consider as public access such as parks, reserves etc to make the hide considering any possible impact on the environment, nearby structures, or worst case possible damage if hidden inside a structure as people start pulling things apart in the search.

It would be a shame if for example Shoalhaven Council became aware of it via an official request to hide one, got the heebie jeebies and asked Groundspeak to get rid of all cache listings within their area. Then the only caches permitted would be those on private property with permission (one cache per cacher, hidden in their front yard).

All land is owned or managed by someone, so sensitive cache placing is the best solution IMHO.

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gmj3191
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Re: Who owns the land.

Post by gmj3191 » 17 January 13 9:16 am

I couldn't agree more.

Tuena
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Re: Who owns the land.

Post by Tuena » 17 January 13 9:48 am

Richary wrote:
Tuena wrote:So I should be seeking permission from council as the land manager before I hide a geocache on land managed by them. Council has numerous links to those parks, grounds, reserves, headlands, beaches etc etc so I can identify them.
Personally I would prefer if you didn't :)
Groundspeak requires that I do seek permission:

Did you seek permission from the land owner or manager? ...................... If you place it on public lands, contact the land manager to find out about any rules or restrictions.

At the moment there tends to be minimal caches on council managed land however should we go down the path of certain overseas countries, larger parks & reserves could be divided up into quadrants & a cache placed at every corner. If some of these caches are difficult to find then the surrounding vegetation could suffer the same fate as happened around that cache in WA.

Best to abide by Groundspeak's requirements now than end up where we did with National Parks.

The cacher should have to formally tick that they have sought & gained permission from the land manager as part of the hiding process.

I haven't sought permission from Forests NSW or local government for any of my caches preferring to ignore, like the rest, that requirement as refusal often offends.

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Richary
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Re: Who owns the land.

Post by Richary » 17 January 13 10:15 pm

[quote="Tuena"]Groundspeak requires that I do seek permission:

Did you seek permission from the land owner or manager? ...................... If you place it on public lands, contact the land manager to find out about any rules or restrictions.

At the moment there tends to be minimal caches on council managed land however should we go down the path of certain overseas countries, larger parks & reserves could be divided up into quadrants & a cache placed at every corner. If some of these caches are difficult to find then the surrounding vegetation could suffer the same fate as happened around that cache in WA.[/quote]

Things are different in Sydney - where quite a lot of caches are hidden in council owned land. I guess everything around here that is bush is pretty much owned/run by a council. Once you go outside the suburban areas you tend to run into National Parks. Actually I prefer the ones hidden in council bushland that some of the local micros that appear to be hidden on someone's nature strip, but each to their own.

[quote]Best to abide by Groundspeak's requirements now than end up where we did with National Parks. [/quote]

I am not sure of the history of NPWS becoming aware of caching and deciding to ban it. It may well have been a ranger coming across a poorly thought cache that was causing environmental damage so they became aware of the hobby. I know at the time a few caches were pulled out by rangers.

I do know at least one council was contacted after someone had a hissy fit and decided to seek permission, and decided to enact a ban (that I don't believe has been enforced, but it's on their books). I know of another council that was supportive to start with, until the legal people got involved. There is now a study going on to monitor the impact of caching in their environment before they make a final determination if they actively support, merely tolerate, or ban the hobby.

Disclaimer: I am aware of these as I am part of the Geocaching NSW Committee (though I am not writing this in any official capacity of the group). GCNSW is continuing to liase with these 2 councils as much as they will permit. But given the history so far, at least in NSW, bringing the issue to a head seems to be counter-productive. It's a shame as it appears overseas that the approach of getting formal agreements allowing caches has worked in many countries.

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tronador
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Re: Who owns the land.

Post by tronador » 17 January 13 10:42 pm

Tuena wrote:Groundspeak requires that I do seek permission:
That is Groundspeaks rules, there are other listing sites. Use common sense, I say!

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bshwckr
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Re: Who owns the land.

Post by bshwckr » 24 January 13 8:35 pm

Nobody owns the land....... we are all just borrowing it. :mrgreen:

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Apty
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Re: Who owns the land.

Post by Apty » 25 January 13 10:00 am

In South Australia, there are a number of resources to the public had can help with "ownership",
however I work in the state government in an area closely aligned with the Lands Titles Office, so if anyone here has any concerns in this regard I am happy to help.
Email aptythekiwi@gmail.com

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