Geocaching and private property

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nutwood
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Geocaching and private property

Post by nutwood » 03 June 11 11:11 pm

This is probably the first of several queries as to the etiquette of caching.
I'm a bit unsure as to the exact approach to private property. In Australia, pretty much everything is owned or controlled by someone. Even your local reserves are council land and I'm quite sure a ranger could move you on if he/she so wished.
I recently planted a Gnome (GA2859) in the local university grounds. It was my first ever hide and I recalled an abandoned birds nest I'd seen there. Ideal spot I thought. The poor souls who went to look were jumped on by three security guards!
I went and collected the gnome the next day and moved him to a less controversial location. As I'd planted him alone I used the collection as a training exercise for my daughter. "Here's the GPS dear, you find him". She did. No security appeared and our collection was unmolested.
Subsequently I was talking to a University staff member and their opinion was that I should have left the gnome there. They were amazed that security had turned up and reckoned the hunters were dead unlucky.
So what's the procedure here? Yes, the university is private property but then so was the previous location I collected the gnome from. Is it up to the hider to provide a location where the hunt can proceed unmolested or is up to the hunters to be discreet and ensure they are unmolested?
I realise that GC states that caches should not be on private property but then I recently logged a cache (GCN6V3) that was the wrong side of a locked gate with Private Property written on it. I was working on site (besides hiding a gnome nearby :D ) so had access. It's obvious that the interpretation is flexible. How do others view this question?

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Yurt
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Re: Geocaching and private property

Post by Yurt » 03 June 11 11:41 pm

There are times when it's just on private property where you just grin and bear it and grab it - a few recently here inside the gates of golf clubs. I wouldn't hide anything there but the fanatical cacher in me has to log them.
Parks in any shape or form I wouldn't worry about, they seem fair game. Be careful to avoid placing where damage may occur due to careless cachers.
Some caches get planted in people's front yards or shop yards with the permission of the owners. However you should make clear on the cache page that you have permission and it is okay to go in. Some cachers have them in their own front yard!

The cache placement that really worries me is when it appears to be on the wrong side of a safety barrier or in a sensitive area (off a boardwalk in a mangrove). I've logged DNFs (or notes) on these even when I've been able to see where the cache is but I've been surprised at the 90% or so of cachers who find and log with no comment.

Laighside Legends
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Re: Geocaching and private property

Post by Laighside Legends » 03 June 11 11:50 pm

If you can go there (legally) without permission from anyone, you can put a cache there (generally :wink: )
Which does surprise me that they were asked to leave university grounds by security...
I know of a couple on Adelaide uni grounds one of which I can't seam to solve the puzzle and other is right next to the security office! :D

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SamCarter
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Re: Geocaching and private property

Post by SamCarter » 04 June 11 8:30 am

I have a cache in the grounds of the University of Melbourne but I did seek and get permission to place it. Of course, whether or not the current general security staff knows (or if anyone even remembers) -- since it was placed nearly 4 years ago -- is another matter, and so it wouldn't be totally surprising to me if security approached someone who was acting a little toooooo suspiciously. My feeling at the time (and, of course, it's the reality too) was that the uni WAS private property despite the fact that people wander all over the place relatively freely. The fact of the matter is that unauthorised people COULD be asked to leave.

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Re: Geocaching and private property

Post by kittykittykitty » 04 June 11 8:59 am

Probably just over enthusiastic security staff. Australian Universities generally see their grounds as public spaces, and often do a lot to invite people in. As long as you stay away from research equipment and clearly closed off areas there should not be an issue.

Making contact with the head of the facilities/security group might help, especially if the cachers are students of the University. Many security types don't know anything about geocaching.
Last edited by kittykittykitty on 04 June 11 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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CraigRat
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Re: Geocaching and private property

Post by CraigRat » 04 June 11 10:09 am

nutwood wrote:but then I recently logged a cache (GCN6V3) that was the wrong side of a locked gate with Private Property written on it.
Given I hid this I thought I should chme in: I'd say the the Private Property sign and gate(?) are new.....or the cache has suffered a massive amount of creep....either way I'll archive it.

Where is the Gate?

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Re: Geocaching and private property

Post by GhostGums » 04 June 11 10:28 am

To enter any property (including Council Parks) you need to have been invited. Now the invitation maybe in the form of 'Open for Business' or 'Such such Park' etc, but comes with owners intent, the bounds to which the invitation apply. For example you may enter a shopping centre to shop, but does not allow you to undertake other activities outside owners intent, which would amount to trespassing. A Council Park intent would for recreational purposes so perhaps geocaching would be ok. So while you may be able to enter a property it doesn't give you unlimted access.

Permission given previously can also be revoked at any time too.

Another thing is thast public land is not neccessarily public accessible land. You can be done for trespassing on public land.

nutwood
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Re: Geocaching and private property

Post by nutwood » 04 June 11 11:26 am

CraigRat wrote:
nutwood wrote:but then I recently logged a cache (GCN6V3) that was the wrong side of a locked gate with Private Property written on it.
Given I hid this I thought I should chme in: I'd say the the Private Property sign and gate(?) are new.....or the cache has suffered a massive amount of creep....either way I'll archive it.

Where is the Gate?
I wouldn't rush off and archive this one. I'm fairly sure the boom gate's been there for ever. It's just that it's normally open. All along the penstock line would be private property but who really cares if you're not doing any harm? At the moment there's work happening so the gate's being locked. Who knows, once the works over, maybe they'll keep locking the gate or maybe it'll go back to how it used to be. I'd give it a few months before archiving. Either that or move it outside the gate. My gnome is straight up hill from the gate so that should give a good idea of where the gate is.
If you want it moved, I'll be up there at least once more over the next week or so.

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Yurt
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Re: Geocaching and private property

Post by Yurt » 04 June 11 12:55 pm

Then there's the question of crown land where it sometimes says no entry but you can see by all the tracks and trails that it's a de facto National Park. This is bushland I'm talking about not defence land or anything like that. Dozens of caches hidden on such land.

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Re: Geocaching and private property

Post by noikmeister » 04 June 11 7:42 pm

In the guidelines it says:
You assure us that you have the landowner's and/or land manager's permission before you hide any geocache, whether placed on private or public property.
So you must ALWAYS get permission. That is without question.

I guess the REAL question is: What constitutes permission? Is implicit permission enough, or must it be explicit?

My opinion is that if the land is publicly accessible then that is permission enough to hide a standard container. Then there comes the sticky question about modifying an existing structure like sticking a fake bolt in a hole that already exists or some other such contrivance. You really need to consider what the repercussions of such a hide might be if/when someone who is responsible for the structure finds it. For example, I know of a hide that is a tap attached to a piece of wood with a micro scuba in a groove in the back of the wood. That piece of wood is then magnetically attached to the side of a metal shed on a road side. That is pushing the limits in my opinion. It doesn't cause any harm, but might cause alarm, so I wouldn't hide it (I was quite happy to find it though)

All that being said. I have only ever got explicit permission for one of my hides and that is because it IS on private property and I have stated as much in the cache page.

budgietas
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Re: Geocaching and private property

Post by budgietas » 04 June 11 9:15 pm

Craigrat, I have a bit of inside knowledge on this, there is a company that is fixing the intake tunnels. Appartently it will take about 3 months and the job will be done.

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theUMP
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Re: Geocaching and private property

Post by theUMP » 04 June 11 10:03 pm

As per the guidelines, I assume permission unless I have some reason to suspect that it's unlikely to've been given, implicitly or explicitly.

It mostly comes down to likely consequences.

If you're caught looking for a cache in an open-air shopping centre carpark, it's probably no big deal.
In a multi-storey carpark, however, there's likely to be more suspicion of and reaction to people skulking around.

If there's explicit "No entry" or "No trespassing" signs on a site and I hear about it, I'll archive the cache, until and unless overriding permission is presented. Yes, even if there's lots of trails and schoolkids use it every day. Other people breaking a law doesn't stop that activity from being illegal.

Stobie poles in SA are specifically out of bounds, and probably power poles elsewhere as well, since there's usually a blanket ban on interfering with power supply infrastructure.

Roundabouts are illegal unless there's specific provision for pedestrians to access them (zebra crossings, footpaths, seats, etc.)

Airports are private property, even the commercial bits, and I'll ask you to show me the permission. Same as Uni campuses.

I treat council parks as public land, although I might ask about placements that are actually on or under buildings. If they're too likely to cause problems, then they might get knocked back.

In general, think about what might happen if someone gets caught looking for your cache. If it's too likely to make the news in the local paper, then it might just be a Bad Idea to put a cache there!

nutwood
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Re: Geocaching and private property

Post by nutwood » 04 June 11 10:19 pm

I understand the points being made but still remain slightly confused as to correct etiquette.
It seems that the situation between Geocacher and land owner is slightly rubbery. A vacant piece of derelict land through which people regularly take short cuts would probably be OK for a cache but if the legal owner objects, it's archived. If the owner doesn't know/ doesn't care, the cache could be there for years. Seems reasonable.
What's the position between cacher and cacher? If the cache is in a semi public area, is it reasonable for the hider to expect that the searchers are going to be reasonably discreet in their searching.
For example, in the above hypothetical case of a cache on vacant land; cache hunters turning up in force and prowling suspiciously about would generate totally different reactions to a single individual throwing a ball for their dog. The cache hider could have reasonably expected that the searchers would employ some discretion but the searchers could equally argue that if the cache is listed, then their searching is permitted. Especially if the cache has been there for years.

PS. I just previewed this comment and read theUMP's recent comment. It cover's a lot of what I'm asking. The "likely consequences" makes sense.

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Re: Geocaching and private property

Post by ruzzelz » 04 June 11 10:49 pm

And then there are National Parks - in at least 2 Australian States permission is required (NSW has an approval system and guidelines) Queensland are still working on the process but getting closer. This is to ensure cache placement stays clear of sensitive historical and environmental locations.

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Richary
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Re: Geocaching and private property

Post by Richary » 05 June 11 12:28 am

I have/had one cache on private property that TheUmp correctly asked me about permission for, on the grounds of a winery in the Clare Valley. (It has been adopted out since I moved away from Adelaide). I contacted the winery manager who happened to be an occasional cacher as it turned out and permission was given. The cache has caused no problems since placement, but then again it's not in an area that will get hundreds of visits.

It's in an area that anyone can wander about in from the Reisling Trail so you tend not to even think about it being private property. I tend to think that anywhere that is freely accessible for public access is probably fair to place a cache.

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