Archiving of Trigpoints...or Maybe Not.

[Captain Terror]

I often go in search of a trigpoint when there is one in the area I plan to cache during my travels. However, on three occaisions I have come across a trigpoint that has been on the top of a water tower. My original thinking was to simply archive these caches as you can't really get to the plaque.

I was talking to a caching friend about this and he disagreed with me about archiving the listing as even though you cant get to the plaque, you have basically found the location, and are within a few metres of the horizontal point.

So I ask your opinion, should these be archived or simply logged as a find and noted in the description. I know these points are on top of water towers due to the coordintes being 3/4m out the whole way around the base of the tower, and the elevation being a similar amount out to the height of the tower. Maybe a photo of oneself and the water tower would suffice a log, maybe not?

Or perhaps I am wrong and trigpoints are/were never placed on towers. The three I have in question are as follows:
Tinana Area
Baddow Area
Kingston Area

[caughtatwork]

Yes, TP's can be on towers as they are highest point around.
If you get close enough to the tower and grab a pic, I'd be happy for them to remain live.
If you want to, you can log an unarchived log against the listing to reactivate it.

[grahamf72]

I logged the trigpoint on top of the water tower at Tin Can Bay as a find. I figure that the whole water tower is part of the man-made trigpoint structure. I wouldn't think logging a mountaintop trig from the base of the mountain counts as a find, but a water tower you can walk right up to the structure, and be within a couple of metres horizontally from the trig. Sure you'll still be 30+ metres away vertically, but you're still quite close to it.

I guess a water tower is a bit of a gimme compared to hiking to the top of a mountain. The Tin Can Bay one had a mural painted on it which I wouldn't have gone to see if not for going to log the trig point, so I guess it is still a worthwhile find in the spirit of caching - taking you to places you otherwise wouldn't go to.

[Yurt]

This is one occasion where I use Google Earth to get the coords. You can pick the trig structure on top in the image usually so I take the coords from there after I have logged a photo. I do spot the odd one that I can't log as I go by so I look it up and publish it but don't log it until I get the photo. Which reminds me I spotted another one yesterday...

[Richary]

I think from the original discussions it was agreed that ones that were clearly visible were fair game, even if you can't lean on the thing. It was suggested that logs with a telephoto lens a long way from the mountain weren't in the spirit of the game.

I've added one where it was about 20 metres into private property but clearly visible from the roadway. That seemed reasonable enough to me.

[Captain Terror]

I logged the trigpoint on top of the water tower at Tin Can Bay as a find. I figure that the whole water tower is part of the man-made trigpoint structure. I wouldn't think logging a mountaintop trig from the base of the mountain counts as a find, but a water tower you can walk right up to the structure, and be within a couple of metres horizontally from the trig. Sure you'll still be 30+ metres away vertically, but you're still quite close to it.

This makes sense and reinforces my thinking. I felt bad because I have potentially destroyed an experience for other cachers. I see, C@W that I can unarchive them thankfully.

Mind, I was the first to attempt them and well, I spose I haven't interrupted anyone a whole lot.

I agree once again here, in that a photo of the water tower should be considered part of the man made structure, and well within 30vertical metres seems reasonable.

In my original post the Kingston TP was through a fence, which I squeezed through, however the fence was within a few metres of the tower, so I spose this should also be reactivated.

Still glad to hear others' thoughts.

Haha, While on the topic of Trigpoints on private property...I had a very Unlikely Experience but like I said in my log, lack of frequency dictated that maybe I leave this one here. There is one other I have found (TP0007, if I remember rightly) that looks like it is in a similar place, I do plan to find it and maybe chat to the farm owner what he would like.

[Bewilderbeest]

There are a number of Trig Points in the Sthn NSW/ACT region which are unfound because they are on private property.

e.g.
http://geocaching.com.au/cache/tp1670
http://geocaching.com.au/cache/tp3678
http://geocaching.com.au/cache/tp2533

I assume no one has approached the owners about access (on the basis that a yes would have been followed by a find, a no would result in an archiving), but I cant see very many of them giving blanket permission for cachers to go for it.

Wouldnt it be a good idea to archive these to avoid any potential unfortunate misunderstandings/trespass incidents?

[caughtatwork]

There are a number of Trig Points in the Sthn NSW/ACT region which are unfound because they are on private property.

e.g.
http://geocaching.com.au/cache/tp1670
http://geocaching.com.au/cache/tp3678
http://geocaching.com.au/cache/tp2533

I assume no one has approached the owners about access (on the basis that a yes would have been followed by a find, a no would result in an archiving), but I cant see very many of them giving blanket permission for cachers to go for it.

Wouldnt it be a good idea to archive these to avoid any potential unfortunate misunderstandings/trespass incidents?

From the cache page:

Please respect local laws and regulations when searching for trig points. If you believe that a trig point is located on private property or in a dangerous location, you may archive the cache, by clicking on Log this Cache and place an "Archived" log on the Geocaching Australia website.

In a word, yes.

[pprass]

This may already have been covered previously, but what about trig points on top of private buildings? For instance there is one on the top of our building that I haven't bothered to log because I thought you had to actually stand beside it when taking a photo to prove that you were there- and I'm not going to scale the last bit of our building to prove that

Extending from the water tank discussion, I gather that you can stand at the bottom of the building and get someone to go back far enough to capture both you and the trig point, which could be 100 metres away

Well if that is acceptable then on with the game!

[caughtatwork]

As we keep saying at GCA, there are no rules.

In the past we have indicated (well, I have an no-one has really suggested otherwise) that 50m to a TP would be sufficient.

A lot are on private property, so 50m is a good indicator that it's just across the fence line. High powered zoom photography is not necessarily in the spirit of the activity, but if it works for you, then it's good by us.

This is a tad hard for people to grasp hold of, but you do what you think is in the spirit of the game of TrigPointing. If you think 100m to the top of the building so you can be in the picture, then do it. If you think that's out of bounds for how you want to play the game, then don't do it. It really is up to you. All the logs come to an email address that I own, and I will guarantee 100% that I do not check them for "within 50m" or "zoom photography".

You cannot hold the rest of the community to your standards nor should the community hold you to theirs. The overarching goal is for you to have fun, so you do what you do and let others do what they want to do.

[pprass]

...You cannot hold the rest of the community to your standards nor should the community hold you to theirs. The overarching goal is for you to have fun, so you do what you do and let others do what they want to do.

Ok - thanks for the confirming what I thought, however just to be clear, I wasn't trying to put forward any standards of my own, I was just explaining the senario and arriving at a conclusion from the water tank example. As I said in my post - "Well if that is acceptable then on with the game!"

[caughtatwork]

I understand. You was the generic you, not the specific you.

It's a bit weird at GCA with the lack of rules. All games have rules, except this one. Well, OK we do have community standards, but as others have said they can bend and flex as necessary. The thing that people find weird is if they do something that would be against the rules at GC even though it is permitted at GCA, some feel the need to have approval given for their way to play the game.

But really, if you want to play the GCA game your way, you essentially can without seeking "approval". I'm not the GCA rules master so I give "approval" and everyone thinks that's OK, but I'm as much the rules master as y'all, so anyone can have an opinion, both ways. It's all fun.

[Richary]

Haha, While on the topic of Trigpoints on private property...I had a very Unlikely Experience but like I said in my log, lack of frequency dictated that maybe I leave this one here.

In this case, the cache is probably far enough inside private property that many people would feel uncomfortable about going for it. However you have indicated you won't archive it as your uncle is aware that cachers may go for it (and is presumably happy for them do so).

Can I suggest that you edit the cache listing (we all can with TPs) to mention it is on private property but that the property owner is happy for people to find it - probably near the top of the listing.

[Tuena]

Msg to Captain Terror (I would use that quote business but it never works for me)

I'm one of those people who felt uncomfortable about jumping over the gate to grab the Scoria Homestead trig. I drove in beside the Lawgi Hall & took a photo of the art on the wall & claimed that as Urban Art. Then drove towards the trig only to find the gate on what appeared on my Nuvi as a public road.

My Urban Art log of 20/6 states: "Art on the wall of the Lawgi Hall Mt. Scoria. Had attempted a Trig nearby but was on private property by 291 metres, may creep over the fence next time".

If I'm in the area again I may creep over the fence (gate) so let your uncle know please!

Thanks

[Captain Terror]

It sounds like the general consensus is I should unarchive those on the water towers and log each as a find with my respective photo. A photo of oneself at the base of the tower seems legitimate enough for a smiley. Certainly a lot less dodgy then some 'finds' I have read about .

I'm one of those people who felt uncomfortable about jumping over the gate to grab the Scoria Homestead trig. I drove in beside the Lawgi Hall & took a photo of the art on the wall & claimed that as Urban Art. Then drove towards the trig only to find the gate on what appeared on my Nuvi as a public road.

If I'm in the area again I may creep over the fence (gate) so let your uncle know please!

I understand fully. Like my log says, purely because I recognised the gate I went in, I would have questioned the find otherwise. And my uncle knew the point was the albeit not what it was for. He now knows that geocachers may come after it, and well you're the only other person I know who has gone through that area after GCA caches. This was the reason I left it active. Right, wrong or indifferent, it is what I did.

Oh and technically, it is not on private property, the mailman wanted him to move his letterbox up and council allowed him and bla bla some story hence why Clark Road is listed as a road and not a driveway.