Fire trail coordinate format?

[caughtatwork]

Really? I heard there was a map involved that may have had a co-ord on it.

[squalid]

You won't get better co-ordinates than those - they are category 1.

[Big Matt and Shell]

You won't get better co-ordinates than those - they are category 1.

For those that don't know this means the track is graded to be able to handle our heavy tankers or CAT 1 Vehicles. It means there are no big drop off's or sharp bends. You would be amazed where these things can go...

Vehicle types are here

[Kerry]

I reckon its something to do with map co-ords


<walks away whistling>.

Yes they are map coordinates but which map and which datum? The thing that many don't appear to understand and missing completely is that coordinates be they UTM, lat/long/ or Cartesian should never require a map (as such) to be usefull. This is the point you are missing, coordinates are basically useless without the metadata to support them.

In this case it is obvious (some) people are expected (are assumed) to know what they are but obviously this is why this question was raised here as to other people they are a big ?? and rightly so.

[Kerry]

Exercise for the so called map buffs

713097mE, 6107211mN are UTM coordinates, right Where is this?

[PesceVerde]

OK. Need more info.
Which map are you using; obviously not one of NNE Sydney (which is what this thread is about)?

[Kerry]

OK. Need more info.
Which map are you using; obviously not one of NNE Sydney (which is what this thread is about)?

Yes very good question, which map? More info? Yes more info so very true. No this thread is about coordinates which do not include "proper" information to make the coordinates usefull and this is what this thread is about, lack of details in general and is not restricted to any one location either. This is to highlight it requires more than a map to determine exactly what the coordinates are "meant" to be. Coordinates in fact do not require a map if the proper information is provided.

[Richary]

Yes very good question, which map? More info? Yes more info so very true. No this thread is about coordinates which do not include "proper" information to make the coordinates usefull and this is what this thread is about, lack of details in general and is not restricted to any one location either.

That is true in a general sense, the coordinates you have given as an example are ambiguous because of a lack of reference. For the posted sign hoever, I suggest this isn't the case.

In the case of these and the similar ones in South Australia - the people they are intended for already know the rest of the data. It's Sydney region, so we can assume 56H in front of it. They also know the datum they are using if they need the sign accurate to more than a couple of hundred metres.

Basically it's not designed to be useful to the general public, except in as much as ringing 000 and saying there is a fire/accident or whatever and I am standing next to this sign.

Now why do they need this information rather than just asking the person for the address? OK in the case of the Showgrounds it is probably easy to say you are at the Showgrounds. But if for example I am halfway up Wisemans Ferry Road and not familiar with the area, I won't be able to give them a cross street or nearest house number, instead "oh, it's about 15 minutes north of Glenorie". If the caller can give the numbers of the sign the emergency response know exactly where to go.

[Kerry]

That is true in a general sense, the coordinates you have given as an example are ambiguous because of a lack of reference.

Yes that is true, lack of reference, in principle so does that sign.

For the posted sign hoever, I suggest this isn't the case.

If this wasn't the case and yes it shouldn't be the case in this instance BUT this is what this thread is about, coordinates that don't make much sense (to the user asking the query), now why they don't make sense is perhaps due to a lack of info?

In the case of these and the similar ones in South Australia - the people they are intended for already know the rest of the data.

Well one would hope so? Do they?

They also know the datum they are using if they need the sign accurate to more than a couple of hundred metres.

Now how do you know they know what the datum is? Very assuming on this one! This thinking totally fails where people are expecting the datum of sign based coords to be the same as some map they might have, not a true indicator at all.

What many are completely missing here is the fundamental principles about unambiguous coordinates.

[Trigg-A-Nomics]

It's good to see that NSW have finally moved into the 21st century and have started putting these signs out on major assets and fire trails. We saw them all over the place in SA and heard that this was a key learning from some of the major fires that they had. They looked like this,
<snip>
This six figure grid is a 100m x 100m square that comes from the UTM reference that you have commented on.

I thought I'd have a crack at converting one of these for curiousity's sake using Big Matt & Shell's tutorial. I looked up the UTM Grid Zone and first two digits for Mt Bold and plugged it in to the converter c@w linked:
http://home.hiwaay.net/~taylorc/toolbox ... eoutm.html

My first attempt at had me out in the Pacific. I know Mt Bold is big, but not that big! Once I'd added a leading zero and shuffled the Eastings along a bit, viola! A track out the back of Mount Bold or S35 06.992, E138 44.501!
The Galston sign is on a track not far from the High School, or S33 39.5508, E151 02.296. w00t! w00t!

Dad is a Group Officer with the CFS and his relief was palpable when they first introduced this system into SA. All the farmers know their grid numbers. 000 knows where those grid numbers are. All the CFS and St John volunteers know how to look up and then get to those grid numbers. Now I know how it works! Thanks guys!

[Richary]

If this wasn't the case and yes it shouldn't be the case in this instance BUT this is what this thread is about, coordinates that don't make much sense (to the user asking the query), now why they don't make sense is perhaps due to a lack of info?

Yes, but the user asking the original query isn't the intended user of the coords printed thereon.

In the case of these and the similar ones in South Australia - the people they are intended for already know the rest of the data.

Well one would hope so? Do they?

Seeing as they were probably responsible for putting them up, I would suggest yes. Including the datum.

I see the advantage of the SA system, where the farmers have them on their gates and it is easy to remember two groups of 3 numbers. Sure it's not a definite location that you or I can easily read off a map, but as Trigg-A-Nomics mentioned they can use it. Now yes they could put up a full sign, including zone and datum, or even lat/long. But how easy is that to remember to the average novice?

I will make an assumption here that the information on the sign is in the same datum as the paper or electronic maps that the emergency services use, as that would make sense. It becomes a problem if they ever decide to change the datum in which case their maps become useless.

As a different example, if you go to the RTA website and look at the traffic incidents they give a UBD map reference i.e. map 116 U8 or whatever. That's great, but I don't use the UBD. So yes, unless you use the same maps (or at least datum) then the coords aren't of any use to you - same as the RTA ones aren't of any use to me.

[blossom*]

The way I see it, Fire trails are used by the Fire Fighters. That's why the information at the trailhead gives information for the Fire Fighters on which Fire Vehicles can safely use the Fire trail and also lists the co-ordinates that they will be able to refer to on the maps in their Fire trucks (and back at the Fire Control Centre) to make sure they're accessing the correct trail.

Luckily for us, we're usually able to use the Fire trail as well for various activities But we oughtn't to expect the reference information for the Fire Fighters to necessarily be relevant to us.

As the OP asked, how can we translate these numbers to something we might be able to use. And I think this has been answered.

[Yurt]

On a slight side note but relevant anyway: yesterday I found a sewer manhole cover which had been lifted off by the floodwaters of a couple of months ago (probably). It was lying in a creek deep in the bush. It wasn't just the cover but the entire top of the manhole which had come off. I took a mark so I could report it to Sydney Water. Rang them and offered the coordinates - no they couldn't work with that - they needed the nearest street and cross street. I said it was in the bush and the nearest street had no access to this point. Finally managed to give them the location of the firetrail entry point and described how to find it. They didn't know/understand the fire trail coords either! I expect to get a call from a bloke staggering through the bush trying to find it.

Living in the 21st century folks.

[Big Matt and Shell]

Hey Yurt,

There are some cachers that work for Sydney Water, post some coordinates here and they may be able to help.

I sent an email with a link to the forum to one person I know.

[Yurt]

Hey Yurt,

There are some cachers that work for Sydney Water, post some coordinates here and they may be able to help.

I sent an email with a link to the forum to one person I know.

Well I did get a couple of calls on the day from the guys looking for it. Despite what I'd said they were still trying to approach from the nearest street. I directed them to the fire trail and then got another call when they were up the wrong creek. The phone dropped out and I didn't hear from them again so I assume they fixed it.

Am planning a series of caches in this area so won't give too much away as yet. I'll be up there next weekend and will check they fixed it.