group raids

[sui_001]

do group raids (ie - 1 individual retriving a cache for multiple) 'cheapen' a high rated cache?

i would say yes - i know the effort involved in getting to a hard cache, let alone setting one, and it pisses me off. if you can't acieve a high rated cache, log a DNF and either try again or leave it...

Sui

[caughtatwork]

Loaded question?

My answer, it depends. There is no concept of cheating in geocaching as there is no competition. It's kind of like cheating at solitaire. You get to have fun and enjoy yourself.

There are some caches that I cannot do because they are beyond my physical capability. I should put them on my ignore list so they never bother me again. However there is a certain amount of fun that comes from being in attendance at a cache location while someone "takes one for the team".

There are three cache that I have attended that I would put in this category. Tallest tree, Watery Transit and Fetch. At each one I was there with someone (or a group of someones) where one individual was willing to perform the feat required. I was a bystander who got to put my name in the log book. Does this cheapen the find for me? Not in any way. I was there, I had fun (which is what I think geocaching is all about), my name is in the logbook I claimed a find.

For the cache owner who has taken the time and effort to hide a paricularly difficult cache in terms of difficulty or terrain, then yes, they may feel that the hide / find has been cheapened in that a whole bunch of people didn't go to the effort to climb the tree, swim out to the cache, swim across the lake, etc.

In the specific case of the tallest tree, I saw your log of 13-May-2010.

to all,

I must confess, i am slightly amused at the amount of effort, and concern with this cache generates.

i am unable to attend as i am in shanghai (just found my 1st china cache!)

looking forward to reading the logs.

Sui

My personal reading of this log was that there was tacit approval to tackle the cache in the manner that was discussed in the notes on the thread. I am almost certain that by the tone of the notes, it was obvious that there was not going to be 20 people climb the "tree of doom".

I am dismayed that you are upset about the way in which your cache was found. however I cannot control your feelings. I feel perfectly happy with the manner in which I found the cache (it's all about fun for me) and I am comfortable with the find that I logged.

If the cache owner had explicity stated that without climbing the tree, swimming out to the cache, swimming across the lake, by each individual cacher to claim a find, and that any such log without achieving the feat would be deleted, then I would not log a find.

Lastly, there is not a fixed number of happy smiley faces in the world. The supply is infinite. If I enjoyed finding your cache (in whatever manner possible), then you should be happy that another cacher has taken the time and effort to arrive at your cache location and join in the fun of the find.

[Happy Chappies]

regarding the 'cheapening' of a cache - in the case you are speaking of, i would say 'no'.

The reason that this cache drew such a massive number of people and turned into such an awesome event was due to and out of respect for its difficulty, not in spite of it. All day people spoke with awe about the cache. If it wasn't such a noteworthy cache, such a 'group raid' would never have taken place. And the logs confirmed that. No one wrote "easy find. TFTC" and left it at that. It's full of tributes to you and your cache.

If it was my cache achieving this, I'd feel proud rather than offended. It doesn't cheapen the cache in any way.

[pwags]

As someone who wasn't at the "tree event" on Saturday, I am disappointed that I missed out. Opportunities like that don't arise very often, hence the difficulty rating of 5 remaining appropriate. The only "cheapening" that has occurred has been by the cache owner, who has since changed the D/T ratings to 1/1, reducing the likelihood that I will want to tackle it in the future, and removing a high D/T smiley from those six people who have found it previously.

As has been said so many times previously, we all play the game in our own way... if the finder wants to claim a smiley, then so be it. No damage has been done, the cache remains in place as originally hidden, and dozens of people had an enjoyable day. Get over it.

[Trigg-A-Nomics]

Great thread. I've got a similar cache in Cleve and I can certainly understand Sui's point of view. Of the six finds only three people have actually climbed the tree! I originally wanted people to enjoy something from my childhood and felt that not everyone was doing that.

Having not been involved with any "group raids" to date I hadn't understood the joy that others can get from being involved in a team find for a cache. But after reading the posts here as well as the logs on "The tallest tree" I now understand that climbing 30 metres up a pine tree is not everyone's cup of tea. I'd be proud to have a gallery like this associated with my cache.

In the end if your name is in the logbook then you get a smiley. Hopefully you had some fun along the way too!

[Uncle Jiffy]

I was at the tree in question with a group of like minded people. As there was a question of safety in climbing that high without the expertise or the equipment I left the climing bit to someone who had the equipment and skill to do the job. I would not climb the tree without the right equipment or others around just in case of a mishap. I would not spend the required amount of money on obtaining the equipment to do so. I completed 99.9% of the journey. If I find a cache in the company of others I dont rehide it in front of them so they can retrieve it, I pass in around and when everyone is done the cache gets rehidden. As with a number of other caches found on the same day, I happened to be at the same spot at the same time as others. I didnt put the container back in front of them and tell them to get it. In the spirit of geocaching, of having fun, getting out there, meeting new people , visiting new places, and being courteous I hand them the box.

I understand your frustration being the hider, but you should feel some pride in the fact that so many people cared about finding YOUR cache that they would use thier ingenuity to complete the journey of the cache. The cache is a cool cache and deserves the initial rating you gave it. If you reinstate the initial rating, others in the future will not be disappointed when they arrive and find they cant do it.

It was hillarious to see such a crowd turn up to a single cache. Sui_001 you should be proud of the effort put in by people just to complete your cache.

Thank you for the cache Sui_001 it is a doozy.

[homedg]

As has been said so many times previously, we all play the game in our own way... if the finder wants to claim a smiley, then so be it. No damage has been done, the cache remains in place as originally hidden, and dozens of people had an enjoyable day. Get over it.

Surely "Playing the game our own way" applies for the cache hider as well.

[caughtatwork]

As has been said so many times previously, we all play the game in our own way... if the finder wants to claim a smiley, then so be it. No damage has been done, the cache remains in place as originally hidden, and dozens of people had an enjoyable day. Get over it.

Surely "Playing the game our own way" applies for the cache hider as well.

Yes, yes it does and they are free to delete the log as not having met the requirement of the cache.
Of course, climing the tree is not a requirement of a cache. Signing the logbook is.
If climbing the tree is a requirement of the cache, then it becomes an ALR which is not permitted on a traditional cache.
In order to meet the guidelines of an ALR the cache should be archived and relisted as a mystery cache with the ALR that the finder MUST climb the tree to log the cache.
As it stands now, the only requirement for a traditional cache is to have your name in the logbook.
That's according to the guidelines.

Morally whether you put it there yourself or had the cache handed to you to put it there is the issue at hand.

[Papa Bear_Left]

If climbing the tree is a requirement of the cache, then it becomes an ALR which is not permitted on a traditional cache.
In order to meet the guidelines of an ALR the cache should be archived and relisted as a mystery cache with the ALR that the finder MUST climb the tree to log the cache.
As it stands now, the only requirement for a traditional cache is to have your name in the logbook.
That's according to the guidelines.

Actually, signing the log on any physical cache is enough for a valid smiley according to the GC guidelines. The option of calling a "Trad with ALR" a mystery cache went away earlier this year, and wasn't grandfathered. (If you get a find deleted because you didn't do the silly ALR, let the relevant reviewer know and it'll be fixed and the owner's wrist gently slapped!)

As the placer of several caches that have been found the "wrong" way, I just smile and shrug when I see the log from someone who came along for the ride or was told the solution to the puzzle or whatever. They probably had less fun than the ones who got the satisfaction of solving the mystery or seeing past the camo or doing the hard climb or whatever, but unless they berate me for their lack of fun, what's it to me?
And if they DID have fun, then that's why I placed the cache in the first place!

[pwags]

As has been said so many times previously, we all play the game in our own way... if the finder wants to claim a smiley, then so be it. No damage has been done, the cache remains in place as originally hidden, and dozens of people had an enjoyable day. Get over it.

Surely "Playing the game our own way" applies for the cache hider as well.

Hmmm... an interesting way to look at it. I guess it all comes down to the motivation for hiding. Some hiders obviously get great pleasure seeing finders suffer in pursuit of the "prize", while other hiders get pleasure seeing people enjoying themselves. Many teams obviously enjoyed themselves on Saturday, therefore Sui appears to fit the first category.

As long as the guidelines for finders are clearly spelt out by the hider (within GC's ALR rules), there's no room for confusion. Was Sui clear in his intentions when hiding this cache? (I suspect not!) Like many of the world's problems, this simply comes down to a lack of clear communication!

[caughtatwork]

Actually, signing the log on any physical cache is enough for a valid smiley according to the GC guidelines. The option of calling a "Trad with ALR" a mystery cache went away earlier this year, and wasn't grandfathered. (If you get a find deleted because you didn't do the silly ALR, let the relevant reviewer know and it'll be fixed and the owner's wrist gently slapped!)

Thanks for the clarification and I will stand corrected (happily).

[Geodes]

Can't people attend these events and derive the same enjoyment without having to get a smilie? I was there on Saturday and thought it was a really great occasion and I didn't sign the logbook.

Really, it's those cachers that actually manage to overcome the obstacles that suffer from their achievement being overwhelmed by the great mass of non-achievers - and it probably puts people off from attempting a high-terrain cache if it's already been logged many times in this fashion.

[Happy Chappies]

Can't people attend these events and derive the same enjoyment without having to get a smilie? I was there on Saturday and thought it was a really great occasion and I didn't sign the logbook.

Really, it's those cachers that actually manage to overcome the obstacles that suffer from their achievement being overwhelmed by the great mass of non-achievers - and it probably puts people off from attempting a high-terrain cache if it's already been logged many times in this fashion.

It might be a perspective thing, but I don't agree that what happened on Saturday diminished the efforts of those who did make it to the top. No one present pretended to get it themselves, and we can all see in the logs who got it by climbing and who it got it with help. I'm in awe of those who did climb, as were many I spoke to at the event. If someone climbs it next week I'll be applauding loudly - moreso after having been there and see Alex do it. My hat goes off to anybody who does this climb. I must admit I'm partially tempted, but being the father of two and husband of one, it would be a bit foolhardy...

Maybe if i'd climbed it myself prior I'd feel differently, but I'd like to think I'd be generous enough to allow those who couldn't climb (or just simply didn't want to) to enjoy the 'find' in a different way.

And as it is, I did enjoy the event regardless of the smilie. So why did I sign it then? I guess it was just part of a shared bond, and because by the letter of the guidelines it was allowed, Sui had made no indication that it was not ok in his logs leading up to this event (and had made no such fuss about prior group finds), and because my 4 yr old daughter was thrilled and wanted us to be a part of 'finding' this cache. And who am I to deny her (or anybody else) their fun.

[caughtatwork]

Maybe the trolls want people to cut to the chase and admit the real reason they logged the cache as a find even though they didn't climb the tree.

Hi everyone, Im caughtatwork and I'm a numbers whore. I will log anything and everything that comes my way. I'll organise and attend 1 or 2 people events after the fact. I will find micros that people hand to me even though I wandered up to the cache site after they'd found it and didn't participate in the actual find. If I'm out with the family and someone else finds the cache I will log it as a find. If I get stuck on a puzzle I will hound people until they give in and I get the answer. Then I'll log the cache as a find without giving credit. I will find virtual caches and locationless caches with reckless abandon, just to get my numbers higher.

There. Happy now?
We haven't had a good trolling / flame war in years, so if you really want to get all hot under the collar because some pixels somewhere are instead of then c'mon. Let fly. You'll get the same back as you hand out. No-one in this game is 100% perfect and follows every single guideline and rule. I wonder if the property owners of that cache that shall no longer be mentioned have given permission? I wonder what they would say to people climbing to certain death 30m above their property. I'm sure they want to pay an increase on their insurance bill. Every cache you have ever placed, wherever it be has permission? Tacit permission does not apply. Where is the piece of paper with a signature on it. Have you ever parked illegally whether it be in a car or on a bike. then you do not deserve the smiley for that cache as you were being dangerous. Did you ever overhear a hint at an event and then use that hint to find a cache. CHEATER !

Get real people, it's a game and the trolls are so far up on their high horse they could grab the cache that shall not be named without even breaking a sweat.

[Geodes]

As someone who wasn't at the "tree event" on Saturday, I am disappointed that I missed out. Opportunities like that don't arise very often, hence the difficulty rating of 5 remaining appropriate. The only "cheapening" that has occurred has been by the cache owner, who has since changed the D/T ratings to 1/1, reducing the likelihood that I will want to tackle it in the future, and removing a high D/T smiley from those six people who have found it previously.

What - an opportunity to get a terrain 5 cache without putting in any effort?

As has been said so many times previously, we all play the game in our own way... if the finder wants to claim a smiley, then so be it. No damage has been done, the cache remains in place as originally hidden, and dozens of people had an enjoyable day. Get over it.

So, anything goes, does it? I'm sure I could log 10000 caches world-wide and probably get away with at least 1000 not being deleted - a great boost to the numbers, but I didn't earn them.

As long as the guidelines for finders are clearly spelt out by the hider (within GC's ALR rules), there's no room for confusion. Was Sui clear in his intentions when hiding this cache? (I suspect not!) Like many of the world's problems, this simply comes down to a lack of clear communication!

I don't think there was much confusion about the hider's intentions with this one.


Are there actually any caches that are sacrosanct - any lines in the sand? What would people actually consider to be cheating when it comes to this sort of thing?