Mystery / Puzzle Caches over Multi's

[Big Matt and Shell]

Of late I have noticed an increase in Mystery caches being published but upon visiting the page to solve the puzzle to get the coordinates for the first point or the GZ I find that they state something like,

"The posted co-ordinates are WP1 you need to use the information from the plaques to solve the puzzle" or "At the posted coordinates you need to find the number..."

The following is from the cache placing guidlines.

The "catch-all" of cache types, this form of cache often involves complicated puzzles that you will first need to solve in order to determine the coordinates.

To me this makes these caches a multi cache by definition

Offset caches are a variation on multi-caches. They are listed as a multi-cache when selecting a cache type. They are not found by simply going to some coordinates and finding a cache there. With the offset cache the published coordinates could be of an existing historical monument, plaque, or even a benchmark that you would like to have your cache hunter visit. At this spot, the hunter looks for numbers or information already appearing on the marker or on some part of the marker or site (geocachers never deface public or private property). The geocacher is then able to manipulate these numbers or information using instructions posted on the cache page to continue the hunt.

Am I barking up the wrong tree here? I'd be interested in knowing others thoughts.

This is not a witch hunt and I'm not asking people to name names. I'm just noticing a trend and wanted others thoughts

EDIT: For spelling! I reserve the right to spell things in ways other than presented in the Oxford dictionary..

[Yurt]

I've been seeking out Mystery caches (Unknown) lately and found a few like you have said. Then again we published one a few months ago which trod the fine line between them. It's probably really a multi when I really think about it but we didn't have a Mystery so we thought it technically qualified. There might have been a thread on this. It wasn't simple maths once you got there as it requires further detective work but there's no sudoku or code to crack.
There's a Two Dogs mystery near me (Under Pressure) which I haven't been to but it sounds like it's just a strange container to try and open - however, it's quite an old cache so things were probably different then. There's the odd Multi out there that isn't multi either.

As for the witch hunt: which witch is which?

[rediguana]

Unfortunately, multis and unknown caches are not mutually exclusive cache types. Whilst there are clear examples that are multi (e.g. go to listed coords, find waypoint 35mm, then find final) and unknown (the good old solve the sudoku (using an) online (tool) and turn it into a trad), there are quite a few that can fall either way. A good way of separating them should be this - you should be able to turn up at the listed coords of a multi and start the cache, whereas an unknown should not require you to turn up at the listed coords.

I got a cache archived in Christchurch a few months ago because it was a multi, but the starting coordinate was listed in the middle of the runway at the airport

I asked for either it to be changed to an unknown type or archived. If it had been an unknown as there was no expectation of access, it wouldn't have been a problem, but a multi type kind of implies you should navigate to the start to find a container or answer a question. Yeah, common sense should rule, but we can just imagine some of logs that could potentially come in...

Which is one of the reasons why when we're in Australia we tend to ignore most multis and unknown caches and stick with trads, earthcaches, virtuals and letterboxes (of course some of these can be tricky too). I tend to leave multis and unknown for places in NZ I regularly travel too. As navigator on our raids, the only way to tell which it is going to be is look at the cache description. One thing I thought about was using tags on GCA to allow tagging to better separate out multis and unknown e.g. if a cache can be remotely solved and converted to a trad, then I was thinking of tagging it e.g. unknown-homework. The cache types on gc.com just don't provide enough granularity. Here are some example ones I tagged a few years ago, but haven't got round to doing more:

http://geocaching.com.au/tags/view/all/nz-multi-short (e.g. could use this to separate out offsets, simple one stage multis from the Canberra monsters I've read about )
http://geocaching.com.au/tags/view/all/ ... n-homework

We wanted to do enough to be able to better filter caches for exactly this reason, yet without giving away the puzzle type. If anyone is interested in coming up with a few standards tags to capture this, we've got a few people in NZ that would be keen to adopt them as well. I've got a seven page thread on our forums that started in a very similar fashion, and ended with use playing with the tags. If people would be keen to develop some standards tags, it could help this situation. We also managed to rope in caughtatwork on that discussion a few times

[theUMP]

Just for the record, I'm pretty firm on listing caches that require finders to visit the listed coords as multicaches rather than mystery/unknown types.

If there's significant calculations or even off-site research to do after that, well, that's what the Difficulty rating is for! Who said multicaches had to be easy?

As a cacher, I feel that I should be able to turn up to the listed coords of a multi and _then_ read the description without then needing to go somewhere else without at least getting some info from this spot.

[Philipp]

it's a puzzle - you have to do some homework before you start:
http://coord.info/GCP4RG

Agreed

it's a multi: just go there with the description:
http://coord.info/GCX484

Hmm, my initial reaction is that I disagree, but on further thought, I am in two minds.
Firstly, many other similar caches are also classed as puzzle, so this fits as a puzzle... alternatively, they are all incorrectly labelled. Eg Underpass Art (GC13YNX), Halls of Learning (GCT5KJ), Reference (GCTFXG) to name a few.

I think the categorisation of Puzzle for these caches comes about because you need to match up items/images, rather than just read from a sign. Although, having said that, following the same logic, it could be argued that multis requiring you to count certain items at a location are also "puzzles" and I don't think they are. Maybe it is Puzzle because technically the items/pictures being matched are not all at (or possibly visible from) a single set of coords.

Interesting though, there do seem to be two major classes of puzzles. Those requiring pre-(and/or post-) investigation, and those that I tend to call "on-site" puzzles. Most of the image style caches DO tend to fall into my "on-site" categorisation, so maybe you are onto something.

Just my 2c and YMMV

reesylou

I always say a mystery is a cache where you have to do homework before leaving home which kind of falls in line what Ian says:

As a cacher, I feel that I should be able to turn up to the listed coords of a multi and _then_ read the description without then needing to go somewhere else without at least getting some info from this spot.

[reesylou]

Unfortunately, multis and unknown caches are not mutually exclusive cache types <snip>... A good way of separating them should be this - you should be able to turn up at the listed coords of a multi and start the cache, whereas an unknown should not require you to turn up at the listed coords.

Yep, I like that distinction, and it makes sense. In some cases where listed coords are accessible, it may be advantagous(sp?) to add a hint at listed co-ords, but there should be no REQUIREMENT to visit the co-ords. (Thinking of caches like GCMNK6 National Treasure)

One thing I thought about was using tags on GCA to allow tagging to better separate out multis and unknown e.g. if a cache can be remotely solved and converted to a trad, then I was thinking of tagging it e.g. unknown-homework. The cache types on gc.com just don't provide enough granularity. Here are some example ones I tagged a few years ago, but haven't got round to doing more:

http://geocaching.com.au/tags/view/all/nz-multi-short (e.g. could use this to separate out offsets, simple one stage multis from the Canberra monsters I've read about )
http://geocaching.com.au/tags/view/all/ ... n-homework

We wanted to do enough to be able to better filter caches for exactly this reason, yet without giving away the puzzle type. If anyone is interested in coming up with a few standards tags to capture this, we've got a few people in NZ that would be keen to adopt them as well. I've got a seven page thread on our forums that started in a very similar fashion, and ended with use playing with the tags. If people would be keen to develop some standards tags, it could help this situation. We also managed to rope in caughtatwork on that discussion a few times

I use something sort of like that for my own purposes and would be interested in attempting to come to an agreement to trial. Hey, I could use GCA private tags to tag the ones I have solved but not found... hmmmhmm

[Yurt]

I had to think long and hard before making my most recent placement a mystery rather than a multi. It started out as a multi but changed along the way. By the broad definition of completing homework first it's not a mystery but it involves visiting three caches beforehand to get info to solve a puzzle. There's actually more to it after that which is part of the mystery as well so I don't want to give it away. But I wouldn't call it a multi.

GC2B8K5

A mystery I placed some time ago I would say is a multi now in hindsight. As it gets virtually no visits I thought of changing it to a multi to encourage more visits but that's an admin job so I've left it.

[noikmeister]

Just for the record, I'm pretty firm on listing caches that require finders to visit the listed coords as multicaches rather than mystery/unknown types.

If there's significant calculations or even off-site research to do after that, well, that's what the Difficulty rating is for! Who said multicaches had to be easy?

As a cacher, I feel that I should be able to turn up to the listed coords of a multi and _then_ read the description without then needing to go somewhere else without at least getting some info from this spot.

I can personally attest to this. Walk the Walk was submitted as a puzzle and got changed to a multi. The Ump keeps us honest here in the ACT.

If I remember the conversation correctly he said something like "Just because it isn't straightforward, doesn't mean it isn't a multi". At the time I really wanted it to be a puzzle because it would have been my first, but now I am ambivalent about it.