TrigPointing

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Would you activly hunt trig points as part of your caching activities?

Poll ended at 11 April 09 2:33 am

Yes
25
76%
No
8
24%
 
Total votes: 33

TeamGeoPlesk
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Post by TeamGeoPlesk » 12 March 09 2:33 am

Just throwing an idea out there which has been going around for quite some time... would there be any call for a section of GCA or external site to have trig points/benchmarks for Australia listed as a findable entity? There have been attempts at locationless caches for this purpose but nothing really usable for people wanting to go out and find some trig points in remarkable locations.

I've been getting into actually taking note of trig points recently and its actually quite interesting to locate them. They all have survey marks underneath (small disks sometimes with numerical codes) used for geographic surveys. Trig points are almost always located on top of hills/mountains and so can make interesting finds.

As I said I am just throwing the idea out there to see what people think. There are trig point databases available through Geoscience Australia and I suppose all that would need to be made available is the architecture to access and add logs to the data. GCA would potentially be a suitable host but I don't want to offer up what is not mine to offer so I will not do that... but I would be interested in setting up a portal for the cause and provide web space for the purpose, if needed.

Waymarking.com is ok for this but has very limited exposure in Australia and is really difficult to locate near-by points. There is also a heap of other junk on there that is not worth even considering as a geo-thingy (what some people will do for a smiley... I suppose each to their own). If we could get a site (or even things placed on GCA) that could link into GCA that would be ideal!

Anyways food for thought, let us know what you recon... I'd be interested to hear.

Jezzza_Xtreme
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Post by Jezzza_Xtreme » 12 March 09 6:54 am

I think nearly all the trig points in the ACT have caches within 50m or so, I've even found a few under the trig point itself...

If you weer going to list the database as findable entities on GCA I think you would need a different category/area of the site, as there are a lot of trig points.

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Bundyrumandcoke
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Post by Bundyrumandcoke » 12 March 09 7:43 am

I am 99.9% positive there is a catagory in Waymarking for Australian Trig Points.

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Snuva
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Post by Snuva » 12 March 09 8:50 am


Damo.
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Post by Damo. » 12 March 09 10:52 am

There are locationless caches for three of the states. Search "state survey mark"

TeamGeoPlesk
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Post by TeamGeoPlesk » 12 March 09 12:44 pm

Damo. wrote:There are locationless caches for three of the states. Search "state survey mark"
Yeah, I actually run the NT one... its just if i want to go out and actually find one of the ones logged... you cannot get them showing up on a gps telling me they are there (hope that makes sense). I could build up a gsak macro to parse the logs and extract the co-ordinates but that would be somewhat cumbersome to do each time a trig point were logged.

There is also the problem of multile logging... i've found quite a few trigs but havn't wanted to log them because i own all the recent logs on the Vic Trip Point locationless page. The locationless architecture is not quite up to this as a general state item.

If trigs were logged as something similar to a separate locationless (but classed benchmark) for each trig that would be much more suited. Similar to waymarking but...
Bundyrumandcoke. wrote:I am 99.9% positive there is a catagory in Waymarking for Australian Trig Points.
Correct, but those trig points on offer are very limited. They are only ones that have been set up by users, i.e. ones generally close to caches. This is not overly all that great as sometimes the best views are cacheless (believe it or not :smile: ), and those offering the greatest challenges are not available. Its actually quite amazing some of the places these trig points are placed.

There are databases available of trig points which would ideally be loaded into a site like waymarking so that people could know of a trig point before it is officially visited by member. I don't think groundspeak would allow this and thus why i thought a purpose built site would maybe be called for. Logs are also not provided in gpx files, not a major problem but could be handy for statistics. There is also no capacity to rate the terrain of trigs. So a trig up an incredibly steep and hard to get to mountain would in essence be the same as one in the middle of a roundabout on a quiet road.

You also need premium membership to view the google earth feeds which i think is a little doodgy.

Thats my three cents anyways.

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The Spindoctors
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Post by The Spindoctors » 12 March 09 1:37 pm

TeamGeoPlesk wrote:There are databases available of trig points which would ideally be loaded into a site like waymarking so that people could know of a trig point before it is officially visited by member. I don't think groundspeak would allow this and thus why i thought a purpose built site would maybe be called for.
As a reviewer for Trig points on Waymarking I'd be more than happy to see them loaded in. The rules aren't as strict as Geocaching. Where are the sites you mention?

Your points regarding logs and terr/diff are quite valid and a slightly frustrating part of Waymarking.

I wouldn't stand in your way of creating a separate website, but please contribute anything you can to the Trig points category on Waymarking.

Sons of Callum
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Post by Sons of Callum » 12 March 09 5:08 pm

I think that would be a great idea to be able to log trig points through GCA and can be counted in your finds or like a separate find category.

strong-arm
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Post by strong-arm » 12 March 09 5:50 pm

Important to note is survey marks are different to trig points, but all trig points usually have a survey mark (I think, someone can probably correct me as I am no doubt wrong). At least the Trig Point Structures i've seen had a survey mark below them.

I made a QLD Survey Marks locationless in the same format format of the other ones but I haven't gotten around to publishing it yet. I should do that soon.

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caughtatwork
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Post by caughtatwork » 12 March 09 7:05 pm

If people want this, it can be done.
We would need a unique identifier for each point and the lat / lon.
We could them make up either a new cache type (as a find) or a different list.

If anyone has them sing out.

Sons of Callum
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Post by Sons of Callum » 12 March 09 7:17 pm

Do survey marks or trig points have an identifier placed on them?

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CraigRat
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Post by CraigRat » 12 March 09 7:34 pm

I have a DB of all the tassie survey points and i *THINK* the trig points.
They have different prefixes for their purpose.

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mundoo
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Post by mundoo » 12 March 09 8:09 pm

Sons of Callum wrote:Do survey marks or trig points have an identifier placed on them?
Don't know about the one on Hindmarsh Island, SA as it is located on private property but within viewing distance of the main road. I have listed it on waymarking.

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big dazza
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Post by big dazza » 12 March 09 9:57 pm

Top idea. Living in a low density cache area I would love something else to look for. I know of the whereabouts of a few trig points, I've waymarked two, but I have been unable to track down a database of Qld trigs, any clues?
Cheers.

TeamGeoPlesk
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Post by TeamGeoPlesk » 12 March 09 10:14 pm

caughtatwork wrote:We would need a unique identifier for each point and the lat / lon.
Ok, lat and long i can manage, just need some time to download all the required files

Unique identifier... this is the frustrating part... in Victoria the answer is that there is not always a code at the survey mark... in theory they should have one but this is the rule with many many exceptions. There are unique names stored in state government databases for each point, however.

In Victoria the site http://services.land.vic.gov.au/maps/smes.jsp gives you an online mapping portal to find points and give you information about them. They also have a unique number associated with them. (i.e. Nillumbik Permanant Mark 169 has the number 331001690). I am not certain about other state systems. There is a great big mish mash of different systems for identifing trig points which would make using an existing system hard (if possible) to adopt.

In australia there are two main types of survey mark: Benchmarks (point of known elevation) and Horozontal Control Marks (Place of known location) as well as a few others such as gravity stations. I believe that trig points can be one of either of these types.

I believe that the best way for this would be to create custom identifiers similar to those currently used by CGA. It could either be one id code (i.e. SM###) or many to describe the point type.

I.e.
SM#### Survey Mark (Lonely brass disk)
TP#### Trig Point (Trig point with brass disk)
GS#### Gravity Station (Another type of lonely disk)

Lat/Long i will work on for australian trig points... downloading now...


caughtatwork wrote:We could them make up either a new cache type (as a find) or a different list.
I would say different list if it were possible, but others views may differ. I only think of those not wanting to view trig point data having them fill up their cache searchs/querys. I wish no ill to those not wanting to partisipate! Having said that it would be great to be able to integrate the two lists, so that you could, for example, search by location for the nearest benchmarks/geocaches.

There would also potentially be slightly different data required for survey mark listings. You would not need a very long description (only basic details of where it can be found... if that) whereas a hint or short desc would not be neccessary. Difficulty is another one which would probably not be needed... i mean they will always be on the ground and probably under some leaves... so difficulty wouldn't change much. Terrain would, however. Points also have a PID (i am fairly sure that is the number i mentioned above) which is a numerical id of the mark.

A point name would also be neccessary for identifying the point in human terms (could default to pid or code if not assigned) for example 'Mt Coupar Trig Station.' It could be a nice thing to offer FTF honours of the oppotunity to name a point. FTF people would also need to add a short desc of how to find it and prehaps the locations name (i.e. mt cooper for personal reference). The ftf would also potentially need to have access to update co-ordinates of listings as some may be out seing as its external data. This coudl be managed through a moderator to ensure that nothing amiss happens... i'd put my hand up for that. By FTF getting naming rites above, i mean for those listing automatically uploaded to the server from an external source, where data may not be available for desc, location etc.

Finally i belive that a feature type would be needed somewhere to distinguish between survey marks, trig point, gravity station etc. The standard rating system currently implemented would also be very handy, to let people know if these places are worth the trip or not.

Just some more throught food. Thanks C@W for showing some support in this idea, would be great to se it get off to a start. And sorry for the length, things seem to get away from me when i am suppost to be studying. Procrastonation anyone?

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