Cache Owner Log Administration

Discussion about the Geocaching Australia web site
User avatar
caughtatwork
Posts: 16612
Joined: 17 May 04 12:11 pm
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Cache Owner Log Administration

Post by caughtatwork » 02 May 22 2:07 pm

Geocaching Australia has never allowed cache owners to change any logs on their caches.

So a cacher could log a find (not having found the cache) and the owner can do nothing except ask the finder to delete their log.

They could log a note with a spoiler in the text. Or a DNF. Or any other log that the cache owner does not deem appropriate and the owner can do nothing.

We have been reluctant to do anything because of the potential for a log, delete, log, delete, log, delete, ad infinitum or until one of the two gets annoyed enough to cause other problems such as other false logs, bad mouthing the owner, destroying their caches, etc.

Has the time come for change in owner log administration?

Should we make change to allow the owner to delete a log? Or change it to a note? Or encrypt it if it contains spoilers? Or remove photos if they contain inappropriate material (including spoilers).

When engaging in the conversation please, seriously consider the bad outcomes. A delete / relog war may happen. People may get upset and leave the site because any number of factions start to fight about what constitutes a valid deleting or log. Who gets to be the final arbiter? (hint, not the site admins).

Also understand that toxic behaviours were partly responsible for the closure of opencaching.com The community reviews of whether a cache was OK to publish or not were held to ransom by factions of players who would block anything they didn't "like".

Let's have a sensible conversation and where you think of a good reason for taking an action, consider the negative consequence that the "other side" will perceive and how can that be avoided or minimised?

User avatar
oldfella
10000 or more caches found
10000 or more caches found
Posts: 497
Joined: 08 September 07 5:50 pm
Location: Innes Park QLD

Re: Cache Owner Log Administration

Post by oldfella » 02 May 22 2:47 pm

I understand the reluctance to openly allow a GCA Cache owner to change the log type from found to note or even delete a log. Because some actions can be taken by a cache owner with GC found logs it does not necessarily mean GCA as to follow.

Would it be an easy or difficult task to administer from C@W's point of view whether it is his role or an appointed administrator role, and this could be difficult as well, to add another line to owners actions:-
Owner Actions
Edit this Cache
Clone this Cache
Add/Edit Gallery
Report this Cache/Log.

Report a log ( just an example) and give the reasons why the particular log/GA number has been reported,
to bring the particular found log or any other type of log to the GCA Administrators attention.
Hoping I am understanding this forum topic correctly.

lucky1955
6000 or more caches found
6000 or more caches found
Posts: 33
Joined: 30 April 14 3:33 pm
Location: Freeman's Reach

Re: Cache Owner Log Administration

Post by lucky1955 » 02 May 22 3:32 pm

thought I had deleted my own log, no intentional delete intended

Team737
Posts: 92
Joined: 07 October 14 10:12 pm
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lee.drury.71066/
Location: Newcastle

Re: Cache Owner Log Administration

Post by Team737 » 02 May 22 4:31 pm

caughtatwork wrote:
02 May 22 2:07 pm


Should we make change to allow the owner to delete a log? Or change it to a note? Or encrypt it if it contains spoilers? Or remove photos if they contain inappropriate material (including spoilers).

<snip>

Let's have a sensible conversation and where you think of a good reason for taking an action, consider the negative consequence that the "other side" will perceive and how can that be avoided or minimised?
I think cache owners should be able to delete and modify the type of log - for a defined set of reasons - basically what you have mentioned - spoilers/offensive material/haven't met obligations.
In terms of images being needed - I'm in favour of the site just not accepting a found it log for a cache that needs a photo, if a photo isn't added at submission....

User avatar
caughtatwork
Posts: 16612
Joined: 17 May 04 12:11 pm
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Cache Owner Log Administration

Post by caughtatwork » 02 May 22 6:03 pm

Team737 wrote:
02 May 22 4:31 pm
I think cache owners should be able to delete and modify the type of log - for a defined set of reasons - basically what you have mentioned - spoilers/offensive material/haven't met obligations.
How (if needed) is that enforced? I could click "Deleted because spoilers" when in reality it's a "tit for tat" deletion of one of my own logs. That enters into the world of tit for tat and the explosion of resentment that comes from it. Is there a way you can think of that would help minimise the resentment that comes from having your well crafted log and image deleted when you may have the log in GSAK but no longer the image?

In a real world example at the secondary site, I logged a find and loaded a picture through the official GC app. The cache owner has done some checking and my image never made it. Now they say they will delete the log unless I provide the image, but I no longer have it. Some months has passed since that occurred and I never noticed that there was a missing image. Would it bother me if the log was deleted? Yes because "not my fault". Now we have a situation where an owner has (may have) deleted a log because the app didn't work properly and I get punished. Hmmm, not happy Jan :-)

Is there an arbitration period which must elapse before the log could be deleted or changed by the owner? A minimum number of good faith exchanges explaining the reasoning? If the log owner never responds does the cache owner get provided the right to delete? If they never see "eye to eye" then should the log be deleted?

In other real world examples, someone logs a DNF. The owner doesn't want people to think the cache is missing, so they delete DNF, no questions asked. This misleads the finders in the cache may actually be missing but the owner wants a clean slate. How would something like that be handled?

Or am I over thinking this and the end outcome is up to the parties to resolve with an endless round of tit for tat?

User avatar
caughtatwork
Posts: 16612
Joined: 17 May 04 12:11 pm
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: Cache Owner Log Administration

Post by caughtatwork » 02 May 22 6:08 pm

Team737 wrote:
02 May 22 4:31 pm
In terms of images being needed - I'm in favour of the site just not accepting a found it log for a cache that needs a photo, if a photo isn't added at submission....
We cannot easily do that. We have an open API which would need to be changed. At the moment the log is created and the log ID is generated. Only then is the image loaded to that log id. The creation of the log doesn't know there is an image coming, so rejects the log before the full "transaction" can be complete. This also restricts the user from making a log, then taking a photo and uploading it. It becomes somewhat restrictive in forcing the user to behave in a certain manner.

The API documentation for the two transactions is here:
https://geocaching.com.au/api/services/logs/submit.html
https://geocaching.com.au/api/services/ ... s/add.html

We can make change for a solution, but as you can load any image, then I can load a happy face to a virtual listing and if the owner is "absent" the logger continues on their merry way.

This is a separate topic for discussion though and shouldn't cloud this topic.

User avatar
oldfella
10000 or more caches found
10000 or more caches found
Posts: 497
Joined: 08 September 07 5:50 pm
Location: Innes Park QLD

Re: Cache Owner Log Administration

Post by oldfella » 02 May 22 6:16 pm

I like the two latest posts from C@W as I agree with that process. The CO should have away of notifying an administrator that there is a problem but this of course would be after the CO has messaged the owner of the log that has triggered the response and has received no reply or an unsatisfactory reply. Giving the CO too much scope to delete amend etc can still lead to tit for tat.

Team737
Posts: 92
Joined: 07 October 14 10:12 pm
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lee.drury.71066/
Location: Newcastle

Re: Cache Owner Log Administration

Post by Team737 » 02 May 22 8:18 pm

oldfella wrote:
02 May 22 6:16 pm
I like the two latest posts from C@W as I agree with that process. The CO should have away of notifying an administrator that there is a problem but this of course would be after the CO has messaged the owner of the log that has triggered the response and has received no reply or an unsatisfactory reply. Giving the CO too much scope to delete amend etc can still lead to tit for tat.
caughtatwork wrote:
02 May 22 2:07 pm
..... Who gets to be the final arbiter? (hint, not the site admins). .....
What process is that?
I'd be happy notifying admins (if that is what is being proposed?) of urgent stuff needing attention (profanities/active cache muggling), but if it were just a dodgy log on a cache, I probably wouldn't bother.

I kind of like the GC way to be honest - let the CO make a call, then have an appeal process if there are grievances. We've deleted maybe 6 or 7 logs in 7 years/4000 logs (most were from the same armchair 'cacher' a while back), I've always sent a message first explaining what I'm about, never had any dramas.

User avatar
oldfella
10000 or more caches found
10000 or more caches found
Posts: 497
Joined: 08 September 07 5:50 pm
Location: Innes Park QLD

Re: Cache Owner Log Administration

Post by oldfella » 02 May 22 9:18 pm

"caughtatwork wrote: ↑02 May 22 1:07 pm
..... Who gets to be the final arbiter? (hint, not the site admins). ....."

What process is that?


"I kind of like the GC way to be honest - let the CO make a call, then have an appeal process if there are grievances. We've deleted maybe 6 or 7 logs in 7 years/4000 logs (most were from the same armchair 'cacher' a while back), I've always sent a message first explaining what I'm about, never had any dramas."

Missed the bit about (hint, not the site admins)

I also have used the GC way a few times and always send a message first prior to taking any action but with GC the only option is Delete the image or Log and nothing else. If the site admins are not to be involved then I can only see the option of something similar to what GC has.

How do I take a quote from a previous reply, please.

Team737
Posts: 92
Joined: 07 October 14 10:12 pm
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lee.drury.71066/
Location: Newcastle

Re: Cache Owner Log Administration

Post by Team737 » 02 May 22 9:28 pm

To the right of a post are two little boxes, exclamation mark and quotation mark - use the quotation mark to quote.....

User avatar
mattyrx
850 or more found!!!
850 or more found!!!
Posts: 134
Joined: 21 May 10 9:57 pm
Location: The Channon, NSW
Contact:

Re: Cache Owner Log Administration

Post by mattyrx » 02 May 22 9:41 pm

There’s two sides to every cache log dispute, and allowing a cache owner to delete someones log is pretty one sided. I imagine opencaching.com’s problems started with just a few cachers exerting their power over others, but it ended with factions of people using the review and cache listing system to war with each other. It wasn’t pretty and I imagine one of the major contributors to it’s downfall.

There are times where undoubtably someone must step in to delete logs spam/profanity etc logs. I’d hope that these don’t happen too often. The account posting these types of logs probably needs an admin check too, just to see if they are legit.

Let's say we allowed a CO to delete a 'Found' log ... how would a log deletion affect dZ? If a ‘Found’ log has earned the cacher research material in one of the dZ Research Tasks, would this be taken away if the log is later deleted by the cache owner?

If a cache owner had the clan ownership of one of their caches taken away from their dZ because another cacher from a different clan logged it as found, then places a Booster on it - could they delete the ‘found’ log and have the dZ points reversed and the ownership revert back?

Some people don’t like that fact that their movable caches are logged by some people more than once, would it be fair for the owner of a moveable cache to delete all duplicate logs because that’s how they want others to play the game?

I think the potential damage that could happen with the tit for tat logging, then deleting, then logging, then deleting etc. Allowing cache owners to delete a log or change it from a ‘Found’ to a ‘Note’ could be a dangerous path to start down. A cache hider who places a box outside somewhere to be found then lists its location publicly online gives up control of which people find their cache physically, and to a degree online. If you only want your cache found by a select group of people, best to email them the location directly and skip listing it on a public website.

If we do want an arbitration for cache log disputes, one method could be to have 3 volunteer geocachers that in the event of a dispute make an independent call on the matter. The final decision is that of the majority. The arbitrators would only see the log in question and the CO’s justification for its removal.

To me it all seems a bit too formal though - and it nibbles at the edges of the ‘free and open’ mantra that makes us who we are. We don’t want reviewers for our caches when we list them, and we probably don’t want arbitrators for our logs when we write them.

I do like the idea of the cacher owner being able to encrypt a found log. Handy if spoilers were given away either accidentally or on purpose. This doesn’t bring into question the validity of the find - just stops a log from being read accidentally and giving away some information that could lessen the finding experience for others.

User avatar
oldfella
10000 or more caches found
10000 or more caches found
Posts: 497
Joined: 08 September 07 5:50 pm
Location: Innes Park QLD

Re: Cache Owner Log Administration

Post by oldfella » 03 May 22 7:00 am

Team737 wrote:
02 May 22 9:28 pm
To the right of a post are two little boxes, exclamation mark and quotation mark - use the quotation mark to quote.....
Thankyou

User avatar
oldfella
10000 or more caches found
10000 or more caches found
Posts: 497
Joined: 08 September 07 5:50 pm
Location: Innes Park QLD

Re: Cache Owner Log Administration

Post by oldfella » 03 May 22 7:04 am

mattyrx wrote:
02 May 22 9:41 pm

To me it all seems a bit too formal though - and it nibbles at the edges of the ‘free and open’ mantra that makes us who we are. We don’t want reviewers for our caches when we list them, and we probably don’t want arbitrators for our logs when we write them.

I do like the idea of the cacher owner being able to encrypt a found log. Handy if spoilers were given away either accidentally or on purpose. This doesn’t bring into question the validity of the find - just stops a log from being read accidentally and giving away some information that could lessen the finding experience for others.
I agree with the statements quoted. A very well thought and written reply to this topic.

HansJJ
Posts: 1
Joined: 18 February 12 3:23 am
Location: St Marys NSW

Re: Cache Owner Log Administration

Post by HansJJ » 03 May 22 8:18 am

when you cache on GC site & cache on the AGC site - i find you have less problems on the Australian site & more dramas on the international site being a cache owner. i personally find all my dramas are with my caches are on the international site & i have less dramas on the Australia site. i also find the caching community on the Australia site are more experienced & more years in the game / hobby. i would say let it be because there is no easy fix & you may make more problems then you can resolve.

Sol de Lune
Posts: 1904
Joined: 09 December 07 7:08 pm
Location: Wright ACT

Re: Cache Owner Log Administration

Post by Sol de Lune » 03 May 22 8:39 am

How much of an issue is this? I've been around the site for a good few years and have found GCA caches all around the country and don't think this is a huge problem.

I've seen a few issues of photo's not being added to a log for trig, but that's about it. Profanity....haven't seen any of that (your opinion of what profanity is may differ to mine of course). Spoilers in logs...haven't read anything in the puzzles that we have that tell me where, or give me a hint as to where the cache was located.

I can't see an issue here, maybe some cachers are just use to the GC way of doing things....but as we aren't GC, I don't think any change is required.

Post Reply