How many is too many?

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Re: How many is too many?

Post by caughtatwork » 19 April 22 9:24 am

Goldenwattle wrote:
15 April 22 10:57 am
Jigsaw caches should be kept separate. At one stage I started deleting my jigsaw solves and some other caches, as I didn't want them part of my finds. Gave up, as that was too time consuming, but I would like to be able to remove from my statistics, all jigsaw puzzles (maybe they could have a separate count) and locationless in one hit.
If you would like all of your locationless geocache finds deleted or changed to notes, let me know in a private message and we'll see if we can accommodate it. I can't differentiate between different forms of locationless, so it would a bulk delete of all or nothing on locationless caches.

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Re: How many is too many?

Post by caughtatwork » 19 April 22 9:25 am

Thanks for all the feedback. I'll read through and make a proposal shortly with the way this will be handled.

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Re: How many is too many?

Post by caughtatwork » 26 April 22 12:13 pm

Thanks for all the feedback.

It seems that there is a desire to have locationless caches return to the original wiki guidelines. There is also a desire to retain a "jigsaw" cache type while restrictions on movement as a result of Covid-19 are still in play. There is a general feeling that other than jigsaw caches, armchair locatonless caches are not desired. The proposal below takes that into account and imposes a number of additional restrictions to mediate those who like to challenge the community.

Continual challenges to the locationless and jigsaw caches and their logging requirements will result in you not being able to log locationless or jigsaw caches in the future.

Wiki guidelines on locationless caches:
https://wiki.geocaching.com.au/wiki/Locationless_cache

All of these actions refers to the state when the changes have been implemented. Due to the volunteer nature of the developers this may take some time and may occur in separate releases.

This is the proposal.
  • Locationless caches that have a jigsaw puzzle to be solved will be archived and locked so no more logs can be made. A grace period will be advised when the change is ready to go live.
  • A new and temporary geocache type will be created that is specifically targeted towards solving jigsaw puzzles. A review for the need of this geocache type will be undertake in 2023 and a decision made as to whether restrictions on movement still warrant the cache type.
  • Jigsaw caches will have a "Solved" log type which will replace "Found It". "Solved" log types will not be counted in your geocache finds and will not contribute to your finds rewards milestones.
  • Jigsaw caches should have a link to the external site to solve the jigsaw puzzle which provides a keyword or codeword to log the geocache.
  • Existing locationless caches will be reviewed on a one-by-one basis and if the locationless geocache is not in line with the wiki guidelines for a locationless cache it will be archived and locked so no more logs can be made.
  • All archived locationless and jigsaw caches will be locked so no more logs can be made.
  • Locationless and jigsaw caches archived after the change is implemented will be automatically locked so no more logs can be made. If the locationless cache is unarchived, the lock will be lifted.
  • New locationless caches must be listed in line with the wiki guidelines for a locationless cache.
  • Locationless caches will require the finder to log a set of co-ordinates to their instance of the item to be found or task to be completed. It remains the responsibility of the locationless cache owner to monitor accuracy of the co-ordinates posted.
  • Locationless caches will require photographic evidence of their instance of the item to be found or task to be completed as per the wiki guidelines and your log may be converted into a "Note" if evidence is not attached within 7 days. It remains the responsibility of the locationless cache owner to monitor photographic evidence.
  • New jigsaw caches must be listed in line with the wiki guidelines for a jigsaw cache (to be created).
  • For a locationless or jigsaw cache that does not fit the wiki guidelines for a locationless or jigsaw cache and a player wants the locationless or jigsaw cache reviewed, they will be able to log a "Should Be Archived" which will trigger a review of the locationless or jigsaw cache. The administration team will then review the cache and have it archived (and locked) or a note placed as to why the cache does not require archiving. Abuse of the "Should Be Archived" log to harass owners will not be tolerated. A "Maintained" log by the owner will not remove this status. If you log a "Should Be Archived" and delete your log the details of the log will still be available to the administrators so they can understand why the "Should Be Archived" status was set. i.e. You cannot hit the SBA and remain anonymous.
  • A limit on the number of locationless or jigsaw caches a cacher may have active at any one time will be created and initially set to 7 for each type. This allows you to create and archived one per day and still allow you time to review logs for accuracy and completeness. If you have more than 7 locationless caches then you will not be able to list (or unarchive) a new locationless cache or if you have more than 7 jigsaw caches you will not be able to the list (or unarchive) a new jigsaw cache

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Re: How many is too many?

Post by oldfella » 26 April 22 2:48 pm

I understand most of this and accept it as it means we are virtually going back to pre Covid 1st March 2020.
Are you going back to the date the very first locationless was published many many years ago and checking or just from COVID in 2020?
Is the effective date going to be back dated or is it only from the date that the change is implemented?
From the Forum Post, as I do not know how to copy it from the forum.

A limit on the number of locationless or jigsaw caches a cacher may have active at any one time will be created and initially set to 7 for each type. This allows you to create and archived one per day and still allow you time to review logs for accuracy and completeness. If you have more than 7 locationless caches then you will not be able to list (or unarchive) a new locationless cache or if you have more than 7 jigsaw caches you will not be able to the list (or unarchive) a new jigsaw cache

So If I have 124 locationless published prior to COVID say 140,say 1 April 2020 and they all meet the wiki criteria of a locationless does that mean I have to archive every one of them except may be 5? What is meant by type. Is that Locationless and JigSaw?

I may be reading this incorrectly or just confused.

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Re: How many is too many?

Post by caughtatwork » 26 April 22 4:54 pm

I'll be checking every one locationless cache going back to the start. I may not get some right, but I will do the best I can.

The dates of effect will be when the change goes live. You will be given a notice period.

Any that are still live will stay live but you can't list any new ones. After the change you will be limited to 7 locationless caches and 7 jigsaw caches. If you have 140 locationless caches at the time of the change you cannot list any new ones until you have only 6 live locationless caches. Then your new locationless cache would be 7 and you're at the limit.

Given the speed at which caches are still being listed (11 per day in the last week), I am limiting the number you can have live. In the example of a jigsaw you can list one on Monday through Sunday. Then the next Monday you would have to archive one to list a new one. I know that if there is no limit the people who are challenging the system will not be reasonable so there has to be a limit put in place. 7 days is also sufficient for people to be able to solve jigsaws.

People who try and game the system by creating multiple accounts will have their access to create new caches limited.

Alternatively if some people persist in circumventing the process, then we may not be able to have locationless and jigsaw caches at all.

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Re: How many is too many?

Post by oldfella » 26 April 22 6:04 pm

Thanks for the reply and I am just going to sit back and see where this goes.

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Re: How many is too many?

Post by Team737 » 26 April 22 7:39 pm

I'm glad to see the changes involving the jigsaws and other armchair 'locationless caches'....
I'm surprised at the limit being imposed on compliant locationless caches though. Maybe the limiting of the normal locationless caches will encourage higher quality listings? A bit like GC and their virtual rewards.....

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Re: How many is too many?

Post by caughtatwork » 27 April 22 8:51 am

The limit is because there are a few people who are listing jigsaws and armchair caches to extreme.

If there is a community who would like to do jigsaws then many can contribute a few rather than a few contribute many and let them go stale. Thus limiting the number of live jigsaws that will end up in the system. 7 allows an individual to list one a day one a rotating basis because it seems that most of the activity occurs in the few days after publication with a few after and then it drops off dramatically.

The number of armchair locationless need to be moderated. By limiting the number of locationless caches that they can list to 7 live caches at a time this allows the administrators to check that the habit of listing appropriate locationless caches is embedded in their mindset. If we continue to allow the unlimited listings then the administrators can't keep up and the situation grows out of control.

The number 7 is not exactly arbitrary but it would have been 10 or 14 or 20 or 50. I chose to start with 7 as explained above, but once the right behaviours are embedded this may be increased.

The lack of cache owner responsibility is also reasoning that I have for locking the cache listings once they are archived. Archived locationless caches can still be logged. Cachers who have archived their listings and no longer play do the right things, but there remains some cachers who are falsely logging the caches and claiming various targets and physical rewards such as the finds pathtags. That's not in the spirit of the locationless cache and the behaviour needs to be moderated. So in this case a heavy hammer is being used to force a change in behaviour.

I'm not here to spoil the fun of the people who are doing the right thing, but I am here to spoil those who are challenging what locationless caches were meant. As has been highlighted, people don't read the forums so they won't know they are not behaving in the interests of the community, so the hammer way is to impose limits, change the behaviour and then relax the limits later.

I do understand that this will cause some folks to become upset and leave. That's truly regrettable but the situation needs change and change is what we are getting, and hopefully for the better.

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Re: How many is too many?

Post by oldfella » 27 April 22 10:58 am

Well for one I did not participate in what the locationless became from the start of COVID 01/04/2020 to the end of March this year. With my publications it was to assist those stuck at home to do some armchair fun.

It was to assist With hindsight it was very unfortunate that the way locationless evolved was allowed to go on in that not format for 2 years. In playing that format of course we were going to increase our number of finds just to meet the set criteria by the CO of a topic that was a challenge. I am in the process of archiving all my published locationless but 5 that includes those that meet the wiki criteria. This is a game and I play it as a game and enjoy it and some time rules need to be tightened and I do not have a problem with that. tis is but a game but if it becomes. It will take me about a week with about 4 hours a day spent on this task to delete what I need to delete. I am happy that I was able to give some enjoyment to GCA followers for that period. My personal thoughts. I actively promote GCA so do not say that I am abusing the system.

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Re: How many is too many?

Post by Just a cacher » 27 April 22 11:34 am

I'm happy with the upcoming changes.

I did do quite a few locationless and jigsaw caches during the COVID nightmare, and I am grateful to those who produced them for the rest of us, to help with our sanity. I do think that time has passed now, and we should be getting the site to something more workable - and this is a great move.

So thank you, Oldfella and Cybergran, and all those others who put the work in then, and a big thank you to Caught@work for doing the needed modifying to get us back on track for the future.

Wendy

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Re: How many is too many?

Post by oldfella » 27 April 22 12:37 pm

Thank you and I do agree that we do need to get back to following the locationless wiki but I think 7 at a time is too small as I will have to archive a lot of mine that do meet the wiki criteria prior to 1 February 2020 and the COVID mess from 1st March 2020 onward till now.

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Re: How many is too many?

Post by caughtatwork » 28 April 22 9:38 am

oldfella wrote:
27 April 22 10:58 am
do not say that I am abusing the system.
Never did. Never mentioned you. Never mentioned your caches.

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Re: How many is too many?

Post by oldfella » 28 April 22 12:36 pm

Thanks. Twice now I have attempted to communicate something and your interpretation is different to what I was intending so I give up.

I really think that this was allowed to go on for way to long before any action was taken and do agree with everything you are doing except for the 7 only at a time being active. For those of us who do publish a locationless as per wiki (outside of the COVID craziness that occurred 2020 to early 2022) it would be a shame fro those published prior to 01/031/2020 being archived so that each cacher publishing only has 7 active true locationless publications. Again my interpretation of what C@W has published here in this forum topic.

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Re: How many is too many?

Post by caughtatwork » 02 May 22 11:34 am

http://wiki.geocaching.com.au/wiki/Jigsaw_cache
http://wiki.geocaching.com.au/wiki/Locationless_cache

I an not yet planning on implementing an automatic process to change Found it to Noted in the event that there is no evidence attached. I hope that the cache owners will continue to manage that aspect, but if that also falls to the wayside more drastic measures may be taken.

I have communicated the changes to the app developers and they will need some time to update their apps.

I am planning on releasing these changes in Mid to Late May and archiving all Locationless caches that do not fit the guidelines in Late May or Early June.

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Re: How many is too many?

Post by oldfella » 02 May 22 11:40 am

Thankyou for the update. How effectively can a cache owner manage their own publications when all we can do is send a message pointing out whatever the issue may be in relation to compliance to wiki guidelines. I have archived all my Published locationless up to 1 April that meet the wiki or not with the intention of re publishing those that I did archive that did meet the wiki criteria to bring them back towards the top of the list as some go back many years. This is all my Jigsaw and other armchair type publications.
I did this with not knowing what the seven active at a time really meant. Again my interpretation.

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