Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

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SeabreezeOZ
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Re: Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

Post by SeabreezeOZ » 22 December 12 11:11 pm

LouiseAnn wrote:
SeabreezeOZ wrote:<----------- Now, how do i get a pic into my profile? :D
Go to User Control Panel and the top of the screen

Select Profile and Edit Avatar from the menus on the left

You have to have you picture hosted on the web somewhere
Thanks LouiseAnn, have managed to put a profile pic in, it's a cartoon representation of my dog, a toy poodle, her name is Coco. Even managed to work out how to update my forum stars, LOL. Just need to work out how to display my finds now! Any clues, ha ha.
:lol:

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quiet1_au
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Re: Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

Post by quiet1_au » 22 December 12 11:27 pm

Black Bunny wrote:
Richary wrote:There's a pile here that have stalled because pretty much all the Sydney players have already found them. Hopefully they get a kick on this weekend. Otherwise I hope an interstate finder grabs the lot and moves them elsewhere for others.
That's the plan - a little christmas shuffle. :D :D
Bring them to Melbourne (east not west :wink: ) There's a pathtag in it for you BB (and JAC too) :mrgreen:


:-$

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FelixII
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Re: Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

Post by FelixII » 23 December 12 11:29 pm

:D :D Hmmm we are really enjoying this game, but has anyone noticed the game taking some unexpected twists?

Seems people are no longer happy to drive 100kms to look for a single moveable cache and are now just publishing numbers
themselves between partners or friends to get the numbers they need?

Now we too can be found guilty as we published a few numbers that weren't in WA that could help us but now we are noticing duplicate numbers appearing that have somehow crept out of local reach :? Not to say it's wrong just saying it's perhaps unexpected :-k

Either way we are still trying to find EVERY GCA cache published so the more the better for us :wink:

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Re: Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

Post by Zalgariath » 23 December 12 11:39 pm

Yes I have noticed so far there are not as many "new" moves.... most caches (and we are completely guilty) seem to circulate around a few well trodden stops. I think in January we will try to trail blaze some more :D

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Re: Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

Post by fluffyfish » 23 December 12 11:58 pm

FelixII wrote::D :D Hmmm we are really enjoying this game, but has anyone noticed the game taking some unexpected twists?

Seems people are no longer happy to drive 100kms to look for a single moveable cache and are now just publishing numbers
themselves between partners or friends to get the numbers they need?

Now we too can be found guilty as we published a few numbers that weren't in WA that could help us but now we are noticing duplicate numbers appearing that have somehow crept out of local reach :? Not to say it's wrong just saying it's perhaps unexpected :-k

Either way we are still trying to find EVERY GCA cache published so the more the better for us :wink:
I don't mind the publishing of new caches. Guess my only concern is that it could be published, moved, moved and then archived. Helps with a bingo but no fun for anyone else.

PS Not that I've seen this happen. Just a possibility.

nutwood
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Re: Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

Post by nutwood » 24 December 12 9:18 am

Bingo has certainly brought up ethical questions like no game before. We're definitely guilty of publishing specific numbers. As far as I'm concerned this is a legitimate part of the game. Before the game started I had a basic list of what numbers were available in Tasmania. Once the game commenced, I did an audit of all the Tasmanian caches and brought my list up to date. Then, with the help of a few others, we set about capturing the remaining numbers in draft form. These drafts have then been released as time and opportunity allowed until all 100 numbers were covered.
Until a bit over a week ago we barely looked at our own cards but we then set about sorting out our own problems. We lacked two numbers. One was brought into the area by another team, the other I published. There was another example of this second number in the State but I wasn't interested in a 500km + round trip to retrieve one number that might not be there when we arrived. Easier to publish it and then there's two in the State, which helps others in same position as us.
This seems a perfectly reasonable tactic which is open to anyone prepared to put the work in of figuring where the draft numbers are up to. We've now completed all our cards but I have a handful of numbers in reserve. As the game progresses, if I notice a particular number becoming a problem, and if I have it, I'll publish it in order to assist others to finish their cards, just as we've been helped to finish our cards. I see this game as cachers versus Bingo, not cachers versus cachers.
Once the game finishes though, there's going to have to be a monumental archiving or you won't be able to move in Tasmania without tripping over a moveable!

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Re: Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

Post by caughtatwork » 24 December 12 10:03 am

nutwood wrote:Once the game finishes though, there's going to have to be a monumental archiving or you won't be able to move in Tasmania without tripping over a moveable!
That is going to happen, but is going to make your game organiser very sad. It's not a reflection on you, it's a refection on what will most likely come to pass. You just happen to be the one who has put it into words.

There are a couple of reasons the end of year game runs.

To keep folks entertained during the summer months when it's nice weather to get out into the fresh air and sunshine.
To promote the Geocaching Australia website and the niche cache opportunities we offer that don't exist on other sites.
To grow a sense of community by placing / finding caches that, to your own detriment, can be used by others to achieve the goal of the game (whether it be bingo, distance, etc).
For those folks in rural and regional areas who can't join in because of the lack of caches in their area, a chance to sit on the sidelines and watch people enjoy a game in the spirit it was intended. Just like watching the Olypmics. You can't participate, but watching can be a great deal of fun.

This is the fourth annual cache race. The first was just a race. The second was themed to Gnomes and the third to Frogs. Over the last 4 years I have watched, with a feeling of despair, that the game is not so much a game, but a serious competition where some folks will go all out to "win" (you don't exactly win a sheep station here folks). Some folks do join in for the fun of the game. That's obvious from the effort that some people go to create and hide their caches. Remember that any cache I hide is actually used by others to help them achieve their goal.

There are some unintended side effects of the huge number of caches that get created and released for the game.

The number of caches that are around impact on the daily email, logs, cache lists where some folks see them as a "waste of their screen / GPX real estate".
The number of moveable caches that are hidden in the same locations (i.e. 10 caches under the same tree), benefits the numbers whores (said nicely), but some feel don't live up to the game of geocaching where it's the journey and the thrill of the hunt, not just a bunch of caches under a bush.
The unfriendly nature of taking caches and not placing them again for quite a while ... ostensibly to annoy others who are hanging out for that one cache (this year) to finish their card.
A whole bunch of "nothing" caches, just for the numbers.
Folks who take a cache from a relatively populated area (in terms of potential geocachers) and move it a hundred kilometres into locations where the cache is unlikely to found again to stop a rival completing their card.

There are of course, the benefits of the game. People who have never hid or found a cache at Geocaching Australia are getting involved. Whether they stay or go, long term, is unknown. There is a sense of community. Some caches will be moved specifically into areas where a friend lives so both geocachers can benefit from the game. i.e. I get a find / move and if I hide it near a friend, then get a find / move too. The sheer entertainment of seeing what sort of creativity people put into their caches. There's also reading the logs to see what sort of fun people are having and to some extent, the frustration of arriving 2 minutes are a cache has been found and moved on. It's like a collective "D'oh" moment when they realise the person moving away from them has the cache in their backpack. I also like to see random encounters when two teams arrive at the same location at the same point and then work out how they can both get a find / move as well as the opportunity to meet another geocacher that they might not have met before.

There is a non-trivial amount of background work that goes into the game. Thinking up the rules for the game and trying to make them loose enough for entertainment, but strict enough that people don't "rules lawyer" their way into getting a benefit from a loophole. That takes a long time. Then there is the site coding. It doesn't happen magically. Your games organiser sits at their computer for some weeks making up the code for the game to try and automatically track the game pieces. Then there are the prizes. The same game organiser determines what the prizes will be, how much he will spend on them, designs then, gets them made up and then pays for the envelope and stamp to deliver the prizes to those involved.

Sound like I'm whining? No, not really. I enjoy doing this in my spare time. What I do tend to find frustrating is the complaints. Gee. It's a game. If you win you get a $1.00 pathtag. If you don't win, you're not exactly out anything that you wouldn't have done anyway. There is no cost to enter. There is no cost for anything. I suppose you could say you have spent a lot of money in petrol to get the caches and if you don't win, then you might feel you have wasted a lot of money. Does a $1.00 pathtag make up for the hundreds of dollars in petrol? I doubt it.

Each year the game gets a little more competitive and the game players get a little more, er, anxious to win. I'm not singling out anyone here. I'm highlighting what I see as a detriment to the game. If you see the things I'm talking about in your behaviour, please let it be known that I have no idea who you are. I've never met you. I ascribe no ill will towards you. I don't know what you as individuals do. I am looking at the game as a whole, trying to see whether the game is benefiting the community and the Geocaching Australia website rather than looking to have a go at any individual. Remember the game was set up to foster community and a participation at Geocaching Australia. If I don't perceive those benefits, then the goal of the game is not being achieved.

If a mass archival occurs after the game I will know that the game has failed.
If the community has grown apart through "trying to win to the detriment of others", then the game has failed.
If the entertainment from the game is where people say "I dread this time of year because of the game", then the game has failed.

Now that you're all thinking this post is all about you. Stop it. Seriously. It's about no-one in particular. This sounds (when I read it back) like a pious, pontification on the attitudes and behaviours of others. It's not meant to be that. I am looking at whether the game is creating a good community outcome or a poor one. Whether the game encourages people to Geocaching Australia or drives them away. Whether the game offers a spectator opportunity to have fun or whether they cringe when they read the forum and the logs.

I need to think good and hard about the goals for the game and whether they are being met or not.

Enjoy the remainder of the game and seasons greetings and best wishes to you all.

nutwood
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Re: Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

Post by nutwood » 24 December 12 10:54 am

Interesting post C@W, written from the point of view of one with an overview and something that I have pondered on myself.
I think the downside to Bingo is that it has moved focus from the caches to the numbers. I'm very much guilty of it myself. I look at the number first, the cache second. The sheer quantity of caches has meant that I've not been able to write the logs I'd like to. Out of courtesy to others, we log immediately from my phone with a brief one word log. The idea being to follow this up with a more comprehensive log. This hasn't happened, time simply hasn't allowed it and I feel bad about all the great caches I've seen without rewarding the creators.
I wouldn't see a mass archiving of caches as a bad thing. Friesianess and I have over forty caches in this game. Some are worthy to continue travelling, some are not, having been created specifically for Bingo. A full sized rusty wheel barrow or a bucket with a hole in it (Dear Henry) are not really long term assets to the moveable inventory and should finish the one way journey they were on before Bingo gave them a two month reprieve.
On the social side, this game has been great. We've coincided with more cachers in this last month, than in our entire previous caching history (events aside). I think it's because chasing numbers requires working together. This can be seen as far more caches are simply passed to another cacher, rather than being hidden and found. It's definitely a game where a co-operative approach will fill the cards quicker than any other. There's no point trying to stop another cacher filling their card, because they'll just return the favour and no-one will fill a card. Turn that around and help them, and you both fill cards.
That said, I don't think Bingo has equalled the beautiful simplicity of the Frogs, where the harder you play, the more you help your opponents.

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Re: Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

Post by Cheesy pigs » 24 December 12 11:09 am

I have thought about this quite a bit over the last week or so, and to be honest I think the nature of the game this year with a set end has been to its detriment. Here we are not even 4 weeks into the game and some have completed their cards and now have not got the impetus to keep finding and moving these caches except for standard finds.

The winter games that used to be run I think are still a better way to go, have set points achievable for hosting or attending an event, caching in a group, even finding and moving 10 caches in a day for example. And at the end of the 2 months the highest score wins the tourney, so its not an arbitrary goal that some can achieve in under 2 weeks, but an accumulation to maintain interest during the entire summer.

I may get change back for these 2 cents worth ;)

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Re: Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

Post by nutwood » 24 December 12 1:00 pm

Cheesy pigs wrote:I have thought about this quite a bit over the last week or so, and to be honest I think the nature of the game this year with a set end has been to its detriment. Here we are not even 4 weeks into the game and some have completed their cards and now have not got the impetus to keep finding and moving these caches except for standard finds.

The winter games that used to be run I think are still a better way to go, have set points achievable for hosting or attending an event, caching in a group, even finding and moving 10 caches in a day for example. And at the end of the 2 months the highest score wins the tourney, so its not an arbitrary goal that some can achieve in under 2 weeks, but an accumulation to maintain interest during the entire summer.

I may get change back for these 2 cents worth ;)
Interesting point Cheesy. What you see as a negative, I see as an advantage. It allows players to choose their own time frame for the game. I will have very little time or mental space for the game during January so have aimed to have our cards completed before then. Whether our cards were completed or not, we'd have had to step back a bit next month or not remain in business.
I'm not sure I'd want to participate in a point scoring game as I have no desire to be competitive in my recreational activities. That's why I've viewed this game as being played against Bingo, not other cachers.

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Re: Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

Post by tronador » 24 December 12 1:15 pm

I tend to agree with Cheesy Pigs. My favourite race so far were the gnomes. They had character and I had fun kidnapping them and sending great logs with photos of their travels back to the owner. This year I am not so concerned with completing a bingo card but am having fun going out finding caches not found before and moving them along whether I need that number or not. I must admit I am concerned about the mass flooding of poor quality caches into the environment just for a number. Geosportz is my favourite game, which is competitive and a challenge. I like the idea that to complete a challenge the cache must have been published before the game starts. Maybe this stipulation could have been made for Bingo, which initially I thought was a rule, like in Geosportz. This would then encourage cachers to try harder to find and move caches to get their numbers, instead of just publishing new caches. This is all news to me here. I thought I would be relying on local cachers who were able to travel for work or on holiday to bring much needed numbers back, as in the past. This made it fun seeing what could be snatched.
Anyway, I thoroughly enjoy all the games C@W publishes and appreciate the time and effort that goes into their development. I have always enjoyed getting out and about to find the caches, individually, not finding a whole bunch just dumped together. Thank you C@W for this years game and I'm looking forward to increasing my GCA finds, and discovering new places, now that I am on holidays.

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fluffyfish
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Re: Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

Post by fluffyfish » 24 December 12 4:21 pm

Maybe an issue is that there is a personal benefit this year (completing a card). Previous events/races had more esoteric or community based goals (such as getting the gnomes to the moon).

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Re: Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

Post by s_mc500 » 24 December 12 4:54 pm

I enjoy the moving games, this one is a bit odd with caches stagnating once people get their numbers. I don't find/hide that many and probably won't complete a bingo card but having fun. I enoyed the gnomes :gnome , I found the same one several times and it travelled 1,000's of kms in between and I enoyed tracking where it went even after the game. One of my frogs :frog is still hopping around the country (tas mainly) and I find it funny each time an alert pops up, he might make it back at some point?

The Geocaching Aus philosophy of play the game how you want works for me.

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Re: Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

Post by Bronnie_1990 » 24 December 12 5:56 pm

I'm pretty sure i'll never complete a card.

Do i care? NOPE!

I'm finding and moving, for the thrill of it all. Watching my own get taken/hidden is amusing. Hey, people are still finding my gnomes and frogs, cant complain :D

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Re: Bingo - The moving cache race for 2012/2013

Post by blossom* » 24 December 12 6:16 pm

[quote="caughtatwork"For those folks in rural and regional areas who can't join in because of the lack of caches in their area, a chance to sit on the sidelines and watch people enjoy a game in the spirit it was intended. Just like watching the Olypmics. You can't participate, but watching can be a great deal of fun.[/quote]

This is maybe the biggest drawback of the moving cache races - that there is a portion of our community who can't enjoy the fun of playing. Just for them, I'll play a bit harder so they can enjoy watching me :mrgreen:

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