Logless cache idea

[Now_To_Morrow]

Hi.

I'm wondering if there is any possibility of being able to log physical caches with codes like cacher caches have so, rather than having a paper log sheet, you can have the code in/on the cache instead? This way your cache doesn't have to be waterproof unless you have swag that isn't waterproof in it.

I've been playing with a few ideas in my head for non-plastic fairly-weather-hardy caches and figure maybe you could have the code hammered into a metal plate or burned into wood or something like that.

I understand the code could be shared around and therefore armchair logged, but that's their loss if they do that because I'd most likely be placing them in nice places to visit.

Another option is inspired by some NFC caches I found recently. Scanning the tag took you to a private website with a hidden page for each tag where you could write a log and upload a photo if you liked. Could GCA possibly have hidden pages like these as an option when creating a cache? Obviously then you'd need to put the web address in/on the cache and people could still share it, but it's another option to think about.

I'm open to more ideas if anyone has any (and I have already considered literal 'log' books).

[mattyrx]

Interesting idea! They could work sort of like an ‘Easter Egg’ hunt – I suppose they could be listed as an Unknown/Mystery cache, however would need the ability to enforce a codeword on these. I can see these would be fun to find. Less maintenance too for the CO, and you could get pretty creative when it comes to the hide.

[caughtatwork]

We have codewords on Ephemeral caches, but they are limited lifespan. Geocacher geocaches are also codeword mandatory. Locationless are optional. Augmented Reality caches are mandatory. Jigsaw caches are also mandatory.

So we have a mix of physical and non-physical caches that have codewords.

Scanning a QR code or BIT code represents a minor risk in that the person hiding the code to be scanned "could" direct you to a webpage that has malicious code embedded in it which as soon as you hit the page infects you machine. Unlikely but possible. Beacon caches may be susceptible to that where the beacon is an NFC code that gets scanned. However you ARE shown the code before you redirect, so the emphasis would be on the player sp check that the link goes to a GCA webpage before proceeding.

This is one of the main reasons we didn't implement a pure BIT / QR / NFC cache type. https://wiki.opencaching.us/index.php/BIT_Caches (now a type of "other" cache).

As you say, codewords can be passed around and without a physical logbook, there is no confirmation that the code was correctly found or not. As we don't offer an opportunity for cache owners to delete logs (for various reasons), any activity that was "suspicious" would have to be handled by the log admins of which we have scant few. I would hope that this wouldn't become a huge issue.

Log pages which are only accessible by a special URL are also possible, but we can't make then ONLY accessible via the link from an NFC, QR, BIT code, etc. So once the page escape into the wild (similar to the codes on trackable), they are open to abuse and would require a codeword change before the shared link becomes useless, until shared again.

We don't have the same rules that GC has around a cache must be a physical object large enough to contain a log book (flat magnetic sheets or signs are not OK at GC as they are not a "container"). However the question must be put to the community as to whether they would like a new cache type that is a codeword ONLY cache type. i.e. a container that contains a codeword, or the codeword is stamped on metal and attached to a brigge, or an NFC device, etc.

So let's have the community have a discussion about whether this should go forward and let's see what benefits or ptfalls there may be and whether are acceptable or whether the purists would kick up a stink.

This site is community driven, so let's the community consultation begin.

[Now_To_Morrow]

A new cache type could possibly work. But I'm moreso wondering if I had an actual cache sized small, regular or large with swag in it, be it traditional, multi or mystery, is it possible to have the option to have a codeword to log it like

We have codewords on Ephemeral caches, but they are limited lifespan. Geocacher geocaches are also codeword mandatory. Locationless are optional. Augmented Reality caches are mandatory. Jigsaw caches are also mandatory.

I honestly don't want to play munzee here and just have a code to scan at GZ. I like the idea of finding a hidden treasure. Buuuut, that said, I actually would still go out and find them if they existed, especially if they were in interesting locations or dZ eligible.

[caughtatwork]

Traditional caches, by their definition are the traditional cache type of geoaching.

Traditionally they would be a container, with a logbook. Any deviation from that would no longer be a true traditional and take away from the traditional concept. Well, that's my opinion anyway.

If we added optional codewords to a traditional cache, then in my mind, it would not be be a traditional cache.

But that's only me. The community should weigh in and you can see what the consensus would be.

[mattyrx]

I don’t think we should change anything on Traditional Caches. As mentioned, they’re no longer Traditional if we change the way that cache type works.

I’m thinking that this style of hide could fit into the Unknown/Mystery type. I think the hider should select the container size to be ‘Other’ – if the object hidden at GZ is not able to hold a log, but instead contains a codeword. All we would need to do is allow a hider to be able to select a codeword when creating the cache, and then prevent a ‘Found’ log from being placed without said codeword being specified at the time. We could always create a new cache type if that is preferred so they can be classified separately. This would be relevant if we decided that Codeword caches aren’t part of dZ, because Unknown/Mystery cachers are.

As for how the codeword is obtained – I think it should be written or attached to the object at GZ and be obvious when found. I don’t think the cacher should be asked a question or need to perform a task to obtain the codeword (e.g. The codeword is the colour of the object I have hidden at GZ). But that’s just me. Things change over time and people’s perceptions should be different. If you make it to GZ and find the thing, then you should be easily given all the information needed to log it.

In the situation above, I could see it would be fun to be searching for objects that people have made and cleverly hidden – however we would need to be prepared for some people hiding codewords on stickers, or even written on existing objects and calling that a hide too. It would be just as valid as a well made hidden object.

I still like the idea of using NFC – but if you want to include iPhone users (without installing 3rd part apps etc) you are limited with what you can do when the NFC is scanned. An Android device could have a codeword pop up on the screen when the tag is scanned, however an iPhone will need load up a URL. If you don’t have phone service, the cache can not be completed. I think you just have to be mindful of this fact when you hide a cache that uses NFC technology. As for security, it would be easy to point an NFC device to somewhere malicious or naughty, but we could do that with QR codes in puzzles or multis too. If we wanted to ensure that NFCs are safe, we could sell the NFC chip pre-programmed and locked to point to a URL ready for scanning/logging in the GCA shop. The hider could specify the GA code of the cache they are using the NFC for at time of purchase. Hiding this NFC would the financially support the site too.

Nice to be discussing such things on the forum, looking forward to some other opinions on this.

[wayn0]

I understand the code could be shared around and therefore armchair logged

I don't think that's a concern, having a log book doesn't stop armchair loggers. When I first started geocaching I remember being confused when seeing a clear lack of names on various logbooks haha. I'm no longer confused about it. It is what it is. Also, players sharing puzzle answers doesn't reduce MY enjoyment of working out and finding a puzzle cache.

... but that's their loss if they do that because I'd most likely be placing them in nice places to visit.

Yep!

Traditional caches, by their definition are the traditional cache type of geocaching.

Traditionally they would be a container, with a logbook. Any deviation from that would no longer be a true traditional and take away from the traditional concept. Well, that's my opinion anyway.

If we added optional codewords to a traditional cache, then in my mind, it would not be be a traditional cache.

But that's only me. The community should weigh in and you can see what the consensus would be.

100% agree


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Playing devil's advocate.. if you're going to create something to then add a stamp or mark, why can't you add an area to hide a small logbook? Eg. Physical objects can be drilled into. If a physical container isn't appropriate then we have the option of a Virtual Cache.

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We could always create a new cache type if that is preferred so they can be classified separately. This would be relevant if we decided that Codeword caches aren’t part of dZ, because Unknown/Mystery cachers are.

Good point

In the situation above, I could see it would be fun to be searching for objects that people have made and cleverly hidden – however we would need to be prepared for some people hiding codewords on stickers, or even written on existing objects and calling that a hide too. It would be just as valid as a well made hidden object.

I agree but I don't think it's a concern as this type of scenario already happens with existing cache types. Look at Traditional Caches for example where they can be a mint tin in an annoying bush next to lots of litter to the next find being an ammo can near a trig with a great view.

I’m thinking that this style of hide could fit into the Unknown/Mystery type. I think the hider should select the container size to be ‘Other’ – if the object hidden at GZ is not able to hold a log, but instead contains a codeword.

This could be a good starting point. Implement a code option for that cache type and see what happens with it. Let it evolve.

"Mystery/Unknown cache/Other - A catch-all to cover other possible caches"

But, it would be exciting to have a new cache type to work with. I do like the idea of this and I'm looking forward to see where this can go with minds more creative than mine

[Now_To_Morrow]

Now that you've brought it to my attention, I have to agree about the "traditional" thing. The log book was one of the main characteristics right from the start. I can imagine one day 20 or so years from now people finding the older caches and being excited to see an actual paper log book in it. Haha.

I've been thinking about making cache containers out of natural fibres. Compostable. Like a basket. I kind of make those whenever I'm bored. Because they leak I figured a log book wouldn't sit too well in them without being wrapped up in plastic, which I'm trying to avoid. So I got to thinking of ways people could log a find without paper. That's why I asked about this. It wasn't just to hide an object in the bush with a code stamped on it. It was to hide a compostable cache container, rather than plastic. And yes, I have considered they would need more regular maintenance.

However, I've been thinking more about the code idea and even ran a little code to webpage experiment with a few cachers and figured it wasn't going to work very well as there's still a fair few cachers out there that aren't the most tech savvy and would much rather just pen their name and date when they find a traditional and move on. When people look for mystery caches they are usually willing to undergo another step to solve, open, or sign the log, so maybe having the code option just for mystery caches would work best.

I just want to add, I'm not against plastic containers. Most work really well. I enjoy finding them too. I'm just trying to think outside the box for my own future cache hides. I even just hid 5 plastic containers myself in the last month for the MMMM game. I just want to try something different.

[wayn0]

I've been thinking about making cache containers out of natural fibres. Compostable. Like a basket. I kind of make those whenever I'm bored. Because they leak I figured a log book wouldn't sit too well in them without being wrapped up in plastic, which I'm trying to avoid. So I got to thinking of ways people could log a find without paper. That's why I asked about this. It wasn't just to hide an object in the bush with a code stamped on it. It was to hide a compostable cache container, rather than plastic. And yes, I have considered they would need more regular maintenance.

Good idea.

I can see that alternative ways of logging (non-traditional) caches has a lot of potential for an increased variety in what we can hide and find.

[caughtatwork]

So an eco-friendly cache where after (say) 6 months, the thing has composted and the site automatically archives it? With indigenous plant seeds so that the composting component also promotes flora in the area?

[Now_To_Morrow]

So an eco-friendly cache where after (say) 6 months, the thing has composted and the site automatically archives it? With indigenous plant seeds so that the composting component also promotes flora in the area?

Oooh, I like that idea!
But I'd rather it last a couple of years. Afterall, living outside Tasmania means GCA hides are lucky to get visit once in 12 months.

[caughtatwork]

How long would a compostable box with a codeword last? Realistically? 6 months? 12? 2 years? I suppose it depends on the environment. Hot and wet, shorter than cool and dry. Maybe you could have a "selection" of months before an auto archive kicked in. 3 months. 6 months. 12 months. etc.

All sorts of questions about length of time to decompose, whether they need industrial decomposition, whether they get mushy in 2 weeks and only fully broken down in a year, whether if you put in seeds, whether they are suitable for the area or become an invasion and whether land owner want your plant on their property.

Hmmm, I like the idea, but we need more discussion and viewpoints.

[Now_To_Morrow]

...but we need more discussion and viewpoints.

Someone might need to put the idea up for discussion
on Facebook and then have someone report the feedback to us non-facebook users here if we want more than us 4 in the conversation. Haha

I wish Facebook would just die and this forum come back to life. I miss the old chatter on the forum.

[Now_To_Morrow]

Just wanting to add an example of what I originally meant by a cache container that is compostable. I wasn't thinking to degrade quickly, just environmentally friendly.

Below is an image of just 4 baskets I've made.



A. All bark, nothing else. It's lasted a year and been dragged all over the place and used often. Never been mended. Still going strong.
B. Coiled coconut husk and plastic-free thread. With a lid it would be a VERY hardy long lasting cache container, so long as no one wanted to take it instead of the swag. This is about 2 years old.
C. Twined bark and plastic-free thread. This one has been hanging in rain and sun for about 9 months and still going strong.
D. Small coconut, coconut husk and plastic-free thread. Has been used as a hanging flower pot by my daughter for the last 18 months. Still going strong.

I think these kinds of things with lids would make nice caches with waterproof contents.

[mattyrx]

Oh, wow! You could have a stall at the market and sell those things! They’d be fun containers to find too.

Maybe rather than a Logless cache type we could have something like an EcoCache. This could be a new cache type that:

• Includes Physical Caches designed to be biodegradable eventually (i.e. not made of metal, glass, plastic but natural materials). Either a biodegradable log book is attached (e.g. people write their name on a popsicle stick and pop it into the container), or a codeword can be used to log it. If someone want to place swag, it should be made from natural things from the area. (i.e. An EcoCache hidden on the beach could hold some shells collected from near by, an EcoCache on in the forest could contain things woven and created from materials found nearby)

• Includes virtual caches, where cachers must answer questions in order to get the codeword to log the cache (like our History caches, and be of a similar theme to GC’s EarthCaches, but allow it to be expanded further than geology, into other natural science stuff including botany and zoology etc.