Grabbing moveables - feature request

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EuDes
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Grabbing moveables - feature request

Post by EuDes » 28 May 14 3:16 pm

I'm not sure whether this has been previously requested (apologies if it has :oops:) but could there be an extra feature added to moveables such as 'Grabbed' or 'Taken' similar to how GC trackables are done? Completing such an action would increment the taker's finds by one (similar to GC trackables) and would remove the listing from being at the posted coordinates while still in the taker's possession (again, similar to GC trackables). When they finally place it in a new location, they then have to add the new coordinates. This could go some way to solving some of the issues where people take a moveable and leave it at the back of their closet for a million years, at the same time having the listing showing it as a 'live' moveable at the previous location. (That's assuming they've 'grabbed' it in the first place I suppose (see any number of GC trackable for example ](*,)).)

I had a look on the Wiki but nothing like that leapt out at me although maybe the second dot point is along similar lines.

As I read what I've written, that looks like a bit of coding, not the least being to have an 'inventory' for each GCA cacher :shock:, but anyhoo, it's just a thought.

nutwood
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Re: Grabbing moveables - feature request

Post by nutwood » 28 May 14 7:01 pm

An inventory would be great! I've been highly embarrassed recently to find several moveables in my possession that had been overlooked. :oops:
They could all be accounted for by excellent excuses such as glued back together, put aside whilst the glue dried and promptly forgotten. None the less, the fact remains that they weren't re-hidden in an acceptable time period. There's one that's apparently in my possession that I'm quite certain that I re-hid. I can only think that I made some basic error and didn't complete the moved log. It's easily done; everything entered, phone rings, change tabs to look something up and never return to click "Log". I've done it before. Problem is, it was in 2012 and I only just noticed when I clicked on the unfortunate gnome and there I am, the latest finder! I have an idea where I might have hidden him but I've got to get there and check before I present abject apologies to the owner.
An inventory would solve all these problems. You find it, it's attached to your inventory until there's a hide log registered against that cache. If you're in the habit of finding and not moving, no problem, the cache goes into your inventory until you either manually remove it, or someone hides it. It wouldn't really matter if, after an event, the same cache is in ten different inventories, the first hide clears them and if it's not hidden, well, presumably those who didn't take it, know they didn't.
I can see it gets harder for the cache's map presence. I know this has been debated before. My only suggestion is that the top half of a cache changes colour (white?) if it's currently in someone's inventory. Doesn't mean it's not there but it does mean there's a found log since the last hidden log. If it's manually removed from an inventory, full colour returns.

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Re: Grabbing moveables - feature request

Post by caughtatwork » 28 May 14 10:21 pm

The idea is somewhat sound, assuming that people do what is needed.

We streamlined the logging process so it wasn't onerous. i.e. Find/move (1 log) or find and move (2 logs). Adding a "grabbed" makes it (possibly) a 3 log process. Find. Grab. Move.

Assuming the three step process is in place, someone finds the cache. Did they take it or not? Assume they did but forgot to log a Grab. Now what? The cache is not there, but the system doesn't know that.

Assume the cacher only wants to log a find. They log the find and they're done. Is it there and they aren't going to log a Grab? Or is it not there as they haven't logged the Grab yet.

Grab the cache ... where does it go? The south pole :-) (we could send it to 0,0). That will appear to move the cache some 10's of thousands of kilometres. We could ignore 0,0 in any distance calculations to solve that. When the move happened, the new co-ords would reset on the cache and it would appear in the new location. Again, ignore 0,0 and go back to the last set of real co-ords for distance calculations.

Then what may happen (I've seen it) is a find will be logged with the new co-ords instead of a move. Or a note with the new co-ords. If it's a find is it actually there?

We could look at something like forcing the 3 step process. Find. Grab. Move. If a cache is not in your inventory it must be a find (except for those who like to move caches but don't want to record a find more than once on a cache, so they have to use a Note). A Grab can only be made if your last find was a Find or Note. That moves it in to your inventory. If a cache is in your inventory you next log must be a Move. If a cache is not in your inventory, then it's a Find or Note.

Unless, someone hands off the cache to someone else after they have found it (say at an event). Then the new person can't log a find because the previous person hasn't logged a Grab and a Move. Now the cache is somewhere, still logged at the original co-ords, but is goodness knows where. The original holder doesn't care because they don't have it and the subsequent finder can't do anything because the original log triplet hasn't been completed.

It also means that when I go caching with my daughter I have to do a Find, Grab, Move and then she has to do a Find, Grab, Move rather than a find each and one final move. 6 logs instead of 3.

The GPX format (3rd party software) doesn't allow us to create real Grab / Move logs. So we will have two log types that a standard GPS won't understand. We're kind of held back by the inadequacies of the original Groundspeak model and the enumerations in the GPX schema.

I'm not putting down the idea. We've had a number of discussions over the years about this and the simple fact is that we can never be sure where a cache is. We can never allow someone to sidestep the 3 log process as then the next person can't take control of the cache. Unfortunately the nature of people is to do as little as possible and I can't see a way we can make this happen.

Regrettably, the only real way to handle this is to check the logs and make a decision as to whether it's there. If it's gone but not moved for a long time, log a needs archived. We monitor those and will archive the cache if necessary to keep things tidy. Notes, DNF's, Needs Maintenance don't come up. If you know (or highly suspect) a cache is gone, logs a NA and it will be reviewed.

nutwood
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Re: Grabbing moveables - feature request

Post by nutwood » 28 May 14 10:41 pm

Why is there any need to make it complicated? The grab move would work well but relies on a cacher action so is inherently flawed.
Cache A is moveable, cache is found: Cache A listed in finders inventory, regardless of how many finders there are. Once cache A has a "hidden" log, cache A is removed from all inventories. If cache A is in an inventory, cache A is represented differently on the maps.
Give the finders the ability to delete caches from their inventory, so when they find and don't move they can tidy things. If they don't, no harm done. The cache is still visible and potential finders can read the logs and make their own decision.

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EuDes
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Re: Grabbing moveables - feature request

Post by EuDes » 29 May 14 3:02 pm

The model I was thinking of for GCA moveables would be, in effect, exactly how GC trackables work (for all intents and purposes, that's really what GCA moveables are after all).

For example, discovering a GC trackable is the same as finding a GCA moveable and leaving it in place. The find of each is incremented by one but there is no change to the distance travelled.

Now, if a GC trackable is taken into one's possession (read: inventory), the distance is not amended until it is placed into another cache (well, not that we can see from this side of the screen at least) and the trackable is no longer as being in the cache. Under my suggestion, the GCA moveable would be treated the same way if the finder elects to move it. It would be in the finder's inventory, the finder is credited with a find by grabbing it but there would be no addition to its kms travelled until placed at a new location. The big difference here is, of course, that this relies on the placer putting in the new coordinates upon placement whereas the GC trackable does this automatically based on the coordinates of the cache. However, they have to put the coordinates in now when they find a new home for the moveable anyway so there shouldn't be too much difference.

People could still find a GCA moveable while in someone else's possession (similar to discovering a GC trackable) and that has no affect on the distance travelled.

I realise that most of this relies on the cacher doing the right thing but at least it would get around the issue of a moveable showing up as being at a given location when it is not.

Laighside Legends
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Re: Grabbing moveables - feature request

Post by Laighside Legends » 29 May 14 9:57 pm

What was the outcome of this (http://forum.geocaching.com.au/viewtopi ... &start=105) thread a couple years ago? I presume you've since got a new computer?

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Re: Grabbing moveables - feature request

Post by Just a cacher » 31 May 14 6:38 am

This all sounds lovely, in spite of C@W's lengthy description. :-) HOWEVER, what we need is to attack the problem from a slightly different perspective.

I've been giving this a lot of thought, as have so many others, as evidenced by the large number of threads and comments over time.

The answer is simple: punish those who do not, will not, or cannot log a find. Punish them hard.

Obviously this is open for discussion, but how about removing a limb from a third-time offender?


On a serious note, C@W and Co. work very hard, and C@W is right. Any system of adjustment he sets up is going to depend on the very thing we would like to eliminate. You can call it human error, human laziness, technological glitch or lack, or "life got in the way".

Personally, I often want to commit a murder when a movable is obviously in the boot of someone's car growing mould. Can't be helped.

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EuDes
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Re: Grabbing moveables - feature request

Post by EuDes » 31 May 14 5:29 pm

Don't get me wrong, in no way was this meant to be a criticism of their work. I agree that they do a fantastic job and on limited resources too all the while keeping our Oz site free unlike our international overlord which is by now a multi-million dollar enterprise (i.e. US$30 per year times 'X' premium members!).

C@W and co are to be applauded - kudos to them! =D> \:D/ =D> \:D/ =D> \:D/ =D> \:D/ :D

My suggestion/request was simply that - a suggestion or request.

I agree that it is unbelievably annoying when someone takes a moveable, chucks it in the boot of their car and forgets about it. There are, of course, those well meaning cachers who will place the cache within a few days of grabbing it but who are inadvertently lumped in this group because there is no 'inventory' capability while they have the moveable in their possession.

Usually it doesn't matter too much because GCA caches don't get 'hit' that often but during competitions, they tend to move around a fair bit and reasonably rapidly. Sometimes the last log doesn't help either. For example, a couple of summers ago, the single word 'gangnamed' was used in a found log. Did that mean that it was taken or found and left? :-k

When I've taken one in the past (which is pretty rare I must admit :oops: ), I'll log a find then log a move using the existing coordinates so that I can change the hint to something like "TAKEN - NO LONGER AT THE GIVEN COORDINATES" until I place it in the new location. It requires 2 logs to do that though, which is a bit of a pain.

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